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What’s all the fuss? PDF Print E-mail
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Tuesday, 31 July 2007
Frankly, I'm surprised the subject of interracial relationships provokes such heated discussions on the DimSum website.  It was a huge issue for me in the early 1980s when I first became interested in the opposite sex, but I can't believe there's still so much introspection over 25 years later.  Certainly, from my experience and observations of the Chinese community, I see a lot more openness and tolerance of diversity.  Am I wrong?

Intrigued, I did some further reading and I'm not so surprised any more.  From my perspective, the second and third generations have different wants and needs when it comes to their cultural roots, even with siblings within a family.  There are many who want to find out more about their Chinese roots; who are open to experiencing and following the traditions and norms. Yet, there are others who think of themselves as British, first and foremost, and assimilate completely into the mainstream culture, perhaps not speaking any Chinese; and then there is a whole spectrum in between.

This assortment of views is mirrored in British-born Chinese (BBC) dating practices and relationships.  Some BBCs want diversity and say sticking to one's own kind is narrow-minded and look to date exclusively outside the community.  Other BBCs want to have Chinese partners and actively seek out people from their own backgrounds; hence, the rise of Chinese online dating and speed-dating events.  The search for a British-born Chinese partner is reflected in programme two of the Radio 4 series, Beyond the Takeaway:   

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/beyondthetakeaway2.shtml

Two of my siblings are with white partners and I married a Chinese man, who was born in Hong Kong and raised in Britain from a young age.  Within my extended family, there are some with non-Chinese partners and others with BBCs or Chinese from other countries.

I think having narrow views about relationships means you could pass up opportunities that may come your way.  You can't dictate the heart: sometimes you seek what's opposite and end up with something your parents knew all along.  The irony for me is that my parents and my husband's parents thought we'd make a good couple when we were in our twenties, but we didn't listen to them!

The heated debates on interracial relationships speak to the fact that we're still trying to get to grips with our identities and the underlying conflict of filial duty versus personal desires.  If we were to be honest with ourselves, our parents' and, to a lesser extent, our community's opinions matter a great deal and can influence whom we date and marry.

"Love is, above all, the gift of oneself."  Jean Anouilh

The period from university to when I started work in the late 1980s was a dynamic one, full of self-discovery and new influences: I didn't go out of my way to meet other BBCs and wanted to lay low from the prying eyes of the community at home.  In the early to mid-1990s, I was in a serious relationship with a British-born Greek Cypriot, who faced many of the issues I faced in his own culture.  I liked him because of him, not because I was rebelling against my Chinese roots.  I learnt Greek phrases and took an interest in Greek food to show his mum I was making an effort to fit into his culture.

We split up because of personal reasons and not because he wasn't Chinese.  My parents, although extremely disapproving at the beginning, (I was the eldest child and, therefore, this was new ground for them) came to embrace him and welcomed him with home-cooked meals whenever he came to visit with me.  In the end, my parents' attitude was if he makes you happy then we're okay.  They, also, wanted us to get married and have children (all Chinese parents want this as it equates to happiness for them.) 

I think we assume our parents are so traditional and old-fashioned they'll object forever.  You could be surprised at how "modern" their outlook is.  We forget they live in the world too and see what their children and friends' children are doing, and they're pragmatic - part of Chinese nature.  My parents have mellowed over the years, choosing to accept instead of argue.

Even when they accept your non-Chinese partner, the older generation may still hold negative views about interracial relationships; a strong one being their concern about divorce.  They think the non-Chinese partner won't try hard enough to adapt to the culture or understand the Chinese mentality, and won't stick with the marriage long term when faced with differences.  In particular, they worry they'll lose access to their grandchildren.  However, they recognize divorce is not the sole domain of the wider community, but has become more entrenched within the Chinese community, even within their own generation. 

"We come to love not by finding a perfect person, but by learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." Sam Keen

Susan Cheung and Yiu Yin at their engagement

When we got engaged

You've probably met people who, but for timing and circumstances, you could have spent a lifetime with.  I see life as an unformed path where others may join you along the way.  You come to signposts and you either move in a new direction together or go your separate ways.  My love for my Greek Cypriot boyfriend was genuine; he was the one for me at that point in my life, but our different personal needs meant our journey ended after several years together.  My love for my husband is genuine, and we were both ready for a commitment when we got together in 1997. 

As for stereotypes, don't assume things about Chinese men; for instance, they're tainted by a macho attitude and their partners have to be submissive and look after them because they were spoilt by their mums and sisters.  If I held such attitudes, I would have dismissed Yiu-Yin as boring, geeky and not my type since he's a scientist and shorter than other men I've dated. 

In actual fact, Yiu-Yin is one of the most unconventional and confident Chinese men I've met.  He's been independent since he was 18 and moved to America at 25.  How many Chinese guys do you know stockpile Indian spices and can cook an authentic chicken curry? 

I can't say enough good things about my husband after nine years of marriage.  He has a great sense of humour, an interest in philosophical questions, and is open to discussing feelings and emotions.  He appreciates me every day and gives me the space to be creative.  I respect his hands-on involvement with our children.  And he tells me the harsh truth when I'm wallowing in self-pity, even though I want to throw a book at him! 

Susan Cheung and Yiu Yin at their wedding banquet

At our wedding banquet

The fact that Yiu-Yin can speak Hakka or Cantonese to my parents is a bonus.  He gets it, without me having to explain, when I'm upset by my mum's criticism or by something my in-laws have done or said.  No matter that we're both from the same culture, we've had to make compromises and adjust to each others' families and their norms; beliefs; prejudices and judgements: we've had to overcome family expectations of being a daughter-in-law and son-in-law. 

At the time, my future in-laws were faced with a modern career woman who had an extremely independent lifestyle and spoke very rusty Hakka.  Quite honesty, I was anxious about having a Chinese mother-in-law.  Certainly, I didn't measure up to the traditional image of an ideal daughter-in-law, being inept at all things domestic.  I'd never really cooked before nor put together the ingredients for Chinese medicinal soup.  Truthfully, I was hazy about some of our cultural norms because I hadn't bothered to find out more before. 

I could easily have said no when I found out how very traditional my in-laws were compared to my family.  Whatever your backgrounds, relationships require work. 

What it all boils down to.

Many BBCs feel strongly about filial respect for their parents and their values, and don't want to cause any rifts if they marry outside the culture.  Some BBCs chose to marry other BBCs because they want partners who share similar experiences to them growing up. 

I guarantee, even if you marry a BBC, there will be issues between the families.  I've seen families come to blows over the planning of the wedding banquet.  Arguments have ensued because each set of parents have deemed the other not generous enough.  Trying to accommodate different village norms and highly charged expectations can present a recipe for a full-scale feud; covered up by face-saving smiles at the banquet.  Afterwards, families may not speak for years, only to be brought together again by the first month party of the first-born grandchild. 

Don't assume if you date a BBC all will be rosy with your parents.  Chinese parents make judgements of other Chinese people and will voice their opinions if your prospective partner is not considered to be your equal in education or outlook, and you'll certainly hear their objections if they think your partner is a gambler, drinker or player.

It won't work if you marry a Chinese person to please your parents and hope that will be the end of their nagging.  Before you've even gone on your honeymoon, they'll be asking when the grandchildren are coming. 

I think you have to work harder at your relationship if you marry outside the culture.  An interracial couple faces prejudices within the Chinese community (although lessening) and your non-Chinese partner has to go a long way to show his or her respect for your parents; if your parents' opinions mean anything to you.

Your non-Chinese partner will be judged on a whole raft of things, not least their education, profession, and how they conduct themselves in public.  As the Chinese person in the relationship, you're the intermediary, translator and teacher.  I don't think it's fair for your partner if you don't prepare them about Chinese customs and etiquette, particularly around food as this is central to the culture - how to eat and behave at a family meal; what to bring for family members when you visit; how to show deference to age and seniority through greetings and actions; and not to dismiss centuries old beliefs and conventions as superstitious nonsense. 

I chose to follow Chinese post-partum customs.  I wasn't particularly thrilled about not washing my hair for a month, but I understood why I was doing it because of my upbringing, filial duty and sense of tradition.  But, would your non-Chinese wife be prepared to adapt to such customs? 

The reality of interracial relationships is it takes a lot of effort and, even after you gain acceptance, you still have to make sure you're aware of nuances and subtleties in case you cause offence.  You could say I don't care about what people think as long as we're happy, but is that the truth?  The relationship between Chinese parents and their children is a complex one, and rooted in the seeking of approval from one's parents.

You can overcome conflicts if you believe the person is for you, but you have to decide how far you'll go; what you fight for and what you're prepared to give up if your parents are against the match; even to the extent of not communicating and having your children not see their grandparents.  Of course, it goes two-ways; that's the choice your parents make too.  On a positive note, I think we're making strides as a community: I see more and more integrated interracial couples and families.

No matter which way we look at it, we don't live in a vacuum and family and community are major factors in any relationship.

 
Comments
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Pauline - What's all the fuss Posted 13:09 on 1 August 2007
A thoughtful piece as always. Growing up my older sister was always quite conventional and the 'good girl' of the family so it seemed only natural that she got together with a HK Chinese man at University and went on to marry him, though there were misgivings within the family. Things didn't work out and through that experience I think she opened up to her true requirements in a mate and not our self imposed views of what we think our parents would approve of. She is now happily married with 2 children of mixed race descent. Yes marrying someone of the same cultural background makes it easier for all involved, but should you narrow your choices at the expense of your happiness? When I read this it did cross my mind to forward it onto my previous boyfriends who didn't 'get' where I was coming from, but that would just open avenues that are better left closed!
Susan S. Cheung - What's all the fuss Posted 19:54 on 1 August 2007
Pauline,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Three points come to mind when I read your comments.

First, you sister married a HK Chinese man: I think as a BBC there are also cultural barriers to overcome in marrying a Chinese person who grew up outside of Britain, such as HK or mainland China. It could be the fluency of language, learning Mandarin or understanding the values of the non-BBC partner. Being a BBC or having lived in Britain from a young age gives you a Western outlook on top of your Chinese upbringing, so an added element to factor in.

I don't know about you, but when I go back to visit Hong Kong, I do feel and look different in the way I dress or deport myself even though I can communicate in Cantonese or Hakka, and there is much about the HK Chinese mentality that I have to get my head around, such as sterotypes about body image and images of beauty.

Second, I'm glad your sister has found her happiness now. To be a "good girl" and make a choice to please your parents when you are unhappy creates a bitter life. Part of growing up and finding your identity is to find your inner strength to stand up for what you believe in, even if it does incur the misgivings of your family. What I wanted to convey in my piece is to find love you have to be open to all the opportunities whatever the cultural background or colour.

Third, it's hard to really prepare your non-Chinese partner to understand our culture and customs. Understanding the Chinese mentality, such as filial duty, takes many years and hard work.

Other cultures may know we love food, but I don't think they quite understand how central it is to being Chinese. They see the sheer amount we order or have on the table at home as "greedy" and cannot believe we talk about the next meal we eat at the same time as eating the present meal or compare the dishes on the table to past dishes we have eaten. It's all about the food - how socialising, family, relationships, respect, communication, love revolve around food. Examples in movies or books, watch "Eat, Drink, Man, Woman" or "The Joy Luck Club."
Kirsten - What's all the fuss? Posted 17:33 on 1 August 2007
I can't say enough good things about Y.Y either. He's great! I think part of the reason why you're more willing now to learn more about traditional cooking and postpartum rituals is because you KNOW that Y.Y. will support you no matter what. He likes your traditional side and he likes your independent side. Acceptance is a wonderful thing!

When I was younger (and read too many romance novels) I thought that love could conquer all. But through experience, I learnt that there's a lot to be said for the 'nuances and subtleties' that you mentioned. It's sometimes too hard to keep explaining why this behaviour isn't appropriate, or why this particular thing has to be done now.

I've always thought that you should be able to marry whomever you chose, no matter what their race, culture, background. I"ve always felt that the choice was mine. But I also now understand why it's easier to marry within your culture. Some things are just understood. Marriage is so much more than love. It's being able to live with one person, every day...and culture and tradition can make that so much easier.

On the other hand,I think the thing that makes interracial marriages more common and more successful is probably the emergence of a global culture. More and more, we watch the same programs on t.v., we eat the same things, we've developed similar attitudes about formerly sensitive topics. There's more common ground and understanding between races and cultures than there was before.

Time to preparing myself for the young ladies that my boys are going to bring home.
Susan S. Cheung - What's all the fuss? Posted 21:15 on 1 August 2007
Kirsten,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your compliments of Yiu-Yin.

I really didn't know that I wanted to explore more of the traditional side of me until I got together with Yiu-Yin. You're right, he will support me no matter what my decision. I've had to write my own script for being a respectful daughter-in-law without losing my quirky and independent personality. It takes an open mind, sometimes compromise, sometimes humour, sometimes biting my tongue and a willingness to listen to advice. Oftentimes, it is about the nuances and subtleties. So even as we are from the same culture and many things don't have to be explained, there are differences and we have to constantly communicate as a couple to be on the same page.

In response to your point that it is now becoming a more global culture, I do believe the world is getting smaller and, because of migration, people are exposed to many more influences than just their family culture.

We are a prime example of how cultures are melding and becoming a unique identity. We are British-raised Chinese who live in America and have American-born children. This opens up so much for our children as they will be exposed to Chinese culture from Britain , Hong Kong and the States, British culture and American culture. Despite present geo-political problems, I feel my children inherit an exciting future (call me a positive optimist if you want) and, like you, I look forward to the partners they will bring home in the future. I hope that my experiences will make me open-minded and prepared for that event.
|LNL - What the fuss Posted 1:52 on 2 August 2007
I read with interest your analysis of inter racial relationship. It is interesting.

Once upon a time, a Chinese man had to be the bread winner. The one to succeed. The one to provide, etc. If he fail to be the dominant one, he is 'hen-pecked', etc. He is therefore a failue. Not many chinese man can live with that.

Your generation is very lucky. There is not so much need for a Chinese man to be the dominant one, to be the one to be the bread winner, etc.

I came from one generation before yours. Become a woman that is equal to a man, you become an outcast. I remember once upon a time that when I went out with the male counterpart, I had to slip my share of the meal to the 'male' to preserve his 'ego'.

My children are 'luckier'. I am happy for whoever they brought home, because, that is their choice. Loving someone is not about race, it is about 'being right' for your child. It is about knowing that they will be happy, and that they had made the 'right choice'.

I remember making my choice. The question I asked was ' Would I have regret if my choice was wrong'. My answer was 'NO'. That was the right choice for me because regardless of right or wrong, I had gone where my heart had taken me. Would I have been better without that experience? The answer is 'NO'; because without that experience I would not be 'ME TODAY'. If I had not been bappy with being me today, what a waste of my 'life'. Life is about 'experience'. Some are 'happy' and some are 'unhappy'. However if you had never been 'unhappy', how the hell do you know what 'happiness' is today,.

I share in your present happiness. I rejoice in your 'confidence' in the current state of your marriage. Marriage is an evolution of two persons' life. However, happiness is not a surety. Personal, mental and emotional baggages intrude into marriages, including children, and past history. Each of us come with baggages; and sometimes, our partners come with baggages which do not manifest itself till later in life. These baggages cannot be solve by themselves or my desire to resolve it. What do you do then?. I am still learning. It is a sickness. I remember my promise. ' Till death do us part!' Easier said than do.

Take the western attitude. Leave them, it is their problem. It is about me. Life is short, so why should I waste my life taking on their problem. His problem is his own. I cannot help him therefore I should look after Number One, Me.

Take the eastern attitude. This is the man I dedicated my life too. This is the family I have given my life to. This is the same man I had promised to dedicate my life to. How can I give up on him, regardless of the fact that he is 'sick'.

I am still seeking answers to these questions. Sometimes I err towards the western ways, sometimes I err towards my eastern upbringing. I am still at the cross-roads. This is the problem being a BBC. My upbringing was eastern, my life experiences are western, and I am a hybrid.

I have two children. One has chosen the eastern way, one has chosen the western way. Which is right? I do not know. Right or wrong, does it matter?. I only hope, they live a 'fulfilled' life; and at the end of their days, they can say one sentence 'I do not regret having lived'.
Susan S. Cheung - What's the fuss? Posted 15:12 on 2 August 2007
Dear LLN,

Thank you for your reflections. It's good to hear from someone older on how they have coped with the transition of years; we can all learn from each other.

I think you are right, my generation grew up believing that men and women are equal in terms of status, education and financial ability. My parents certainly encouraged all of us, irrespective of sex, to do better.

I know that some Chinese families still favour the boys, but attitudes have come a long way, and those "face-saving" gestures you mentioned, like slipping your share of the meal money to your date to preserve his "ego" would be unheard of now.

This equality is reflected in BBC marriages. Whereas my father-in-law had never changed a single nappy, (it wasn't expected of him in his generation) my husband is really hands-on and has been since day one with our children, and I've never had to say anything to him.

As for the status of marriage and happiness, I believe it's not the romance and roses you first feel when you fall in love. Marriage is work, it requires both partners to communicate and hear the other's feelings and "get it." It takes compromise and never assuming that you know what's going on in the other person's head or taking the other person for granted. Like seasons, marriage and happiness can "die" in the winter if the roots are not nutured. It takes work and willingness on both sides.

As for your own feelings about your partner, I think deep down we have to trust our gut feelings, our soul, to know what's the truth and what the right path is for us, no matter what we think will be the outcome - that we can deal with because we are strong. You really have to listen to you inner voice and not be afraid of the answer. I feel for your struggles. Good luck.

As for your children, it's great that they follow their own paths and have made their own choices. That can only come from your good parenting and you should be proud.
chinaman - meh Posted 16:58 on 2 August 2007
a lot of BBCs have very stereotyped image of what we chinese are supposed to be like, and project quite a lot on to us. just coz they share our colour doesnt mean they know about us, all they see is some squatting, wife beating, smoker who no speak engrish and in need of culture and modernity

BBC girls have actually walked away and stopped talking to me when i said i came from the mainland, never non-chinese, other mainlanders or hk/macau fobs.

rant over
Susan S. Cheung - Chinaman-meh Posted 19:37 on 2 August 2007
Dear friend,

Thank you for bringing up this important point.

I'm sorry that you've experienced this treatment from BBC girls. It speaks to the fact that we're not a homogenous race and there are many differences, prejudices and stereotypes.

There are common Chinese values, but many of our outlooks are different due to factors such as the mainstream culture we were brought up in and language differences.

I think many BBCs feel more comfortable with BBC culture, of course, and Hong Kong culture because of family ties and being able to speak Cantonese, and, as you say, they don't know about mainland Chinese culture, values and mentality, and, oftentimes, they don't speak Mandarin. Just from mine and some of my BBC friends' experiences, we have sometimes been snubbed by mainland Chinese because they didn't consider us to be Chinese enough. No matter what the reason, it's no excuse for people's rudeness to you.

I think as we become more exposed to mainland Chinese news and culture globally we will begin to find out more and ask questions, and that is a step closer to overcoming prejudices and differences.

As I wanted to convey in my piece, you don't know what's around the corner with a relationship unless you keep an open mind and are open to all opportunities.
Sang - What's the fuss? Posted 21:48 on 2 August 2007
First off, those are some great pictures!

I really like the line: "You can't dictate the heart: sometimes you seek what's opposite and end up with something your parents knew all along." Well in my case, more like one of my best friends than parents since I get into interracial discussions with him quite a bit. He's against it while I'm for it. As I grow older, however, I do see his side of the story, and it's true what you said that interracial relationships require more effort. In the end though, I think the heart is very fickle and you really have to know yourself quite well before you know what works for you.

Great article with many insights. Thanks!
Susan S. Cheung - What's all the fuss? Posted 23:11 on 2 August 2007
Dear Sang,

Thank you for your positive feedback and comments. I'm happy to share our engagement and wedding photos with people. It was a very happy time; Chinese wedding banquests are stressful and tiring, but joyful events.

You make a good point in that you have to know yourself well before you know what works for you. But, I think you have to be aware that you don't fall into a pattern: just because you have dated certain types of people in the past, they may not be the one for you at this point in your life.

Up until I got together with Yiu-Yin, I had only dated non-Chinese men and was comfortable with that. I wasn't against Chinese men, but the opportunities didn't arise as I lived away from the Chinese community. With Yiu-Yin, I went outside my comfort zone and took a chance, and you could say the rest is history!

This is the point of my piece - be open to all opportunities, whatever someone's culture or background. I think if you approach relationships with an open mind, an open heart and knowing yourself, that is such an attractive and confident mix.
Dee - What's all the fuss? Posted 8:42 on 3 August 2007
I've just returned from Mannheim to be faced with another thought provoking article! Perhaps it's the family genes that feed my need to ponder on what you say Shifay (little sister listening intensely to the older sister!)

I dated a half Chinese half Italian guy in the 90's. He was born in HK, though shipped to England to study his A 'levels and attend University. His mother was Italian which assigned him with incredibly good-looks. He had a traditional outlook regarding his spouse, i.e. she can work but when children arrived then she should be the “home maker”. That is as far as his Chinese qualities ran. He was far too Western for other facets of the Chinese Culture to be occupying his life, and so we parted.

A couple of years later along came Mr Morocco. His values in life were similar to mine. Our cultures in regards to family were so complementary it was scary. Our only obstacle was his mother. She really wanted her favourite son to marry a girl of the same culture and religion. She would only speak Arabic in my presents. I was quiet insulted.

My mother advised me to overcome this by being more respectful and not answer back when my future Moroccan mother-in-law spoke (those who know me can imagine how painful this was for me). Mother believes that if you love someone and you join their family what his is yours. Therefore, his mother is your mother. My grandmother was a battle axe in her prime. She mellowed in her old age and grew to appreciate my mother. It takes patience; however, I'm doubtful I can be as tolerant as my beloved mother.

Any good deeds I performed didn't work. No matter what I did (or didn't do) I wasn't good enough for her son. Things changed dramatically when we were planning our future. More to the point he was organising our lives. He wanted to move to another country and didn't discuss it with me. He simply expected my resignation from my job and for me to move to where he would be. My annoyance came when he bought his mother a house five minutes away from our potential home. He reckoned if I spent more time with his mother she would eventually accept me. Can you visualise the “war” his mother and I would have cultivated?!! This incident and “his mother” were the central cause of the relationship's demise.

In essence culture, values and religion play vital components to a relationship. Though people's acceptance and understanding contribute to whether a relationship can develop and survive. I don't believe a relationship can endure if the in-laws remain hostile.

I'm lucky my parents haven't been judgemental about my previous boyfriends. They've always stated that as long as I'm happy with my decisions then that's the important thing. I wouldn't go out with someone my folks disliked. I'm pleased my parents have installed values in me but occasionally I've felt torn between my Western views and my cultural principles. I suspect the issues we face are the changes in an ever evolving multicultural world.
Susan S. Cheung - What's all the fuss? Posted 14:24 on 3 August 2007
Dear Dee,

Thank you for your reflections and sharing your personal experiences, and big sister can always learn from younger sister!

I think what strikes me in your experiences is the issue of communication. Communication is often quoted as the source of problems so it becomes part of the wallpaper; we hear it intellectually, but we don't really try to get to the root of the problem.

With any committed relationship, issues such as whether you stay home with the children when they are young are never assumed; it is something for both partners to discuss and agree upon, taking into consideration personal needs and family situation. Certainly, this is the case if your partner wants to move to another country and makes decisions for you without consultation. Relationships die without real communication.

At the end of the day, as I intimated in my piece, you reach signposts in your relationship and if the timing, circumstances and needs of each partner aren't in tune, you walk your separate ways. This doesn't diminish your love for the person, but it means letting them go and deciding to walk a separate path without them.

The issue of your ex's mother-in-law and her hostility, I think interracial partners can eventually overcome parental objections, but it takes a long time, a strong will and you have to decide what you stand up for and what you sacrifice. If there are objections partners deem too big to overcome, they have to decide whether or not they walk the same path.

Take care and a big hug.
Susan S. Cheung - Addendum to my reply to Dee Posted 20:22 on 3 August 2007
Dee,

Sorry, I meant to write your "ex's mother" not "mother-in-law" in my response (I think I was going to write your prospective mother-in-law!)

Also, I wanted to expand on the issue of objections and obstacles to a relationship. There may be very big ones that may not be overcome if one partner cannot compromise or reconcile their needs, such as moving to live in another country or changing their religion. Then it comes down to your principles, values, conscience, needs, wants and priorities. In the end, we all have to make a decision and move on.

I know your parents will support you whatever your life decisions. They are wonderful people.
Howard Posted 18:27 on 4 August 2007
Lovely article, but I really can't understand people's acceptance that a different race automatically translates to a different culture.

Take the hair washing thing for example - I would never even consider it, nor see it bearing any significance. Asking my mum, a native from Hong Kong, and she said it doesn't matter. The fact is this is OUR relationship, and OUR values. We may take some from either side if we like, but for the most part we go our own way. Even if our parents were authoritarian, they would eventually see sense that this is the route we want to take.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 21:24 on 4 August 2007
Dear Howard,

Thank you for taking the time to comment and share your thoughts.

In response to your points, as I said in my piece, the second generation Chinese who live in Britain have various affiliation to their cultural roots and, for the most part, many adapt various aspects of their parents' culture to the mainstream culture. So, if you feel more comfortable with British culture and you have a non-Chinese, British partner you are right in saying that a different race does not automatically translate to a different culture. However, in my experience of second generation, particularly through my work with Chinese young people in the UK in the 1990s, the majority felt cultural conflict - yes, they were British, English, Scottish, etc, but they knew they were different as well, through the food they ate, the festivals they celebrated, the way they paid respects to their elders, their family history and so on. Therefore, I would disagree with you in that, no matter how much we assimilate, we will always have a different cultural background. Although, I think cultural roots will water down as the generations progress and we don't adhere to some traditions and pick and chose what we want.

Parents who have lived in the UK for many years have also adapted and may have dropped some of the old conventions. Whether your grandparents/parents/aunts/uncles are familiar with or practice the "old ways" depends on their outlook, their assimiliation, sense of family history and will to pass down the traditions, and, of course, whether you, the younger person, will listen, keep an open mind and try.

I didn't think I would be the sort of person to stick with the traditional norms during and after birth, given my track record before I met my husband. However, having gone through postpartum traditions twice, I can say I'm glad for it and want to thank my parents and in-laws for looking after me.

Birth is one of the toughest physical and mental acts a woman can go through. I can't begin to describe the pain that I went through, even with pain medication, and particular as I had very difficult labour and emergency surgery because they feared for my health and for the health of my unborn child.

When you come out, you are drained and depleted of all your energy and the old postpartum practices are done solely for your recovery. You eat a special diet until the first month's celebrations for your child. This is very strict and does not include any sugars in your system. You don't physically exert yourself and don't lift anything heavier than your baby. Your relatives are there to look after you and take care of your needs. You are not supposed to go out, because the body may take a chill and Chinese believe that a lot of heat and energy is lost through the head and getting your hair wet may make you ill because you get chilled. Therefore, you don't wash your hair for a month. This whole period is for you to do nothing, but recover and bond with your child.

I believe it's for individuals and, as a couple, to decide whether you do any of the traditions, particularly if your parents are relaxed about following them, and that is perfectly within your rights, and you're correct to say, you do decide as a couple what is the nature of your relationship and what your values are. It's fine not to follow the tradtions. However, what I think is wrong (and I have seen it)is, in deciding not to follow the traditions, you dismiss the older generation as old-fashioned, not understanding and not knowing anything, and centuries old norms as superstitious nonsense.
LNL - What the fuss Posted 15:47 on 5 August 2007
Dear Susan,

Congratulation for a good piece!

Old wives tales, supersitions and traditions started in the first instance by observations and experiences. To dismiss any without due thoughts, analysis and research, there speaks a 'closed' or 'ignorant' person.

I can relate with you on your experience with 'child-bearing'. I was in 48 hours labour; complicated by the stubborn first born deciding in his haste to be born, that he was going to use the front of his head as his exit from the womb. Being a forcep delivery, I was not allow to handle him for the next 48 hours. Due to my psysology, the last 36 weeks before his birth, I could not partake much food, therefore during my pregnancy I lost about two stone. Exhausted, shocked and depleted, and being a young mother, this is the time, I needed much support from my family network. Unfortunately, due to the distance and family circumstances, I was left to cope with this life changing event myself.

I survived like many woman before me. But surviving does not mean you are not left without scars.

Ever wonder why in UK so many woman suffer from post-natal psychosis?. Having witness the premature demise of a friend caused by post-natal psychosis which blighted the life of her family for over twenty years, I throughly support the ritualised traditins of the management of 'mother and baby' by the Chinese during the early days of childbirth.

It takes a mature and civilised culture of the Chinese people to realise that looking after the interest of the mother equates to looking after interest of the child. Making looking after mother into a traditional ritual ensures protection of the mother, regardless of personalities and relationship within families. How does a mother in law or the husband explains any lack of care of the 'post-natal' mother without the sanctions and disapproval of the Society around them.

However, I fear that these ritualised traditions which govern and managed civilised behaviour within the Chinese family; in the guise of traditions and culture will eventually be lost. Most ABCs or BBCs will view these traditions are redundant because their parents did not understand the reasons and purpose of their age-old traditions; or either view them as redundant.

However, this nurturing of mother and new-born should not be redundant because it performs a very important function in a caring Society, unless the new-born can be nurtured in a 'test-tube' in the modern times.

Therefore, before anyone mocks a well established tradition, do some analysis or research.
Susan S. Cheung - What the fuss Posted 18:54 on 5 August 2007
Dear LNL,

I'm glad you like my piece. Thank you for sharing your birth story. Like many before you, you showed great strength and bravery in dealing with childbirth, labour and post-natal recovery at a young age by yourself. I acknowledge the strength of will to be able to do that and, of course, you have to because your child depends on you.

I absolutely agree with your point that, regardless of personalities and relationships, first and foremost your family has your recovery in mind. Therefore, I was grateful my parents and then my in-laws made the long journey at their advanced age to come and look after me for several weeks. No matter differences in personality and communication styles, they wanted to be there for me.

It's hard when faced with practices so different from Western outlook not to recoil and say it's redundant; it doesn't fit into my experiences and viewpoint. Even though I said yes I would go through the post-natal traditions, I had to really prepare myself to fight my Western instincts to say "No" or "Do I have to?" A day after I gave birth, I wanted a bar of choclate. Of course, sugar is not allowed on the post-natal Chinese diet. I persisted with eating rice with chicken cooked in sweet home-made rice wine and ginger, boiled eggs in sweet black vinegar and more eggs! A month with no sugar, nothing cold, no salads, etc, I thought it would be so hard. You know what, after the month, I felt so much more energized and my skin looked better and mentally I felt better.

You're right post-natal depression hits people in different ways and is a big issue. I'm sorry for the early loss of your friend. My Western friends were amazed that I would allow my parents or in-laws to be with me in such close proximity, doing everything for me for so many weeks, they thought that was too much to deal with. I was grateful, past the first two days or so when I just wanted silence to release the post-birth tension and emotion, for the older generations' attention. They did everything for me and when I wanted to go and cry, I gave them the baby and closed my door and sobbed. Afterwards, they didn't remark on my wobbly state, just started cooking dinner for me.

I think as the younger generation, we do the older generation a disservice if we don't at least listen and find out more of why they do certain things. After that, it's okay to say it's not for me if you have really listened and understood. Also, you're right that some parents do not understand the traditions themselves and so will not be able to pass these down to their children, and so they'll be lost. I fear having gone through these experiences and come to grips with them, I may not have the opportunity to pass on any of my knowledge when my son or daughter marry in the future and have children - then again who know!
CC - What's all the fuss? Posted 10:29 on 10 August 2007
To be honest, I've never thought interracial relationships cause such provoke or debate. I have many BBC friends who have non-Chinese partners and are very happy together. As far as I can see it has not caused any conflicts with their immediate families or friends and I'm not sure if they have had to work necessarily harder to make their relationship work. If anything, there are probably more hurdles and potential conflicts when a Chinese marries another especially when it comes to a traditional wedding banquet. I couldn't agree any more when you mentioned about organising Chinese wedding banquets! Perhaps one of the reasons why we organised our own traditional white wedding first at our own expense without any input or say from our parents before we had our Chinese wedding banquet. Still I think all parents will be supportive regardless of who their children marry. I married my BBC wife because I loved her and not because of her race or what family and other people might say or want. I'm sure my family and friends would treat and respect us the same even if my partner was non-Chinese.
chinaman - susan Posted 0:39 on 16 August 2007
actually i'm from guangdong and speaks as much mandarin as most bbcs. I wasn't so much offended by the rudeness of the incidences as the implicit assumptions. im saddened more than anything else to see my brothers and sisters think like that about their own, they've grown up with their parents, teachers, peers etc. telling them what a fantastic opportunity it is for them to be born in britain and they have internalised this to such an extent that they think those not have some sort of disability which they need to eventually overcome. the implications are very racist.

of course i know where you're coming from though and i don't mean to imply that all bbcs have such a chip on their shoulder, just as not all of us mainlanders automatically try to gauge whether your chinese enough.

great of you to follow up people's comments though, for us who are to lazy to register for the forum!
Susan S. Cheung Posted 2:59 on 16 August 2007
Dear Chinaman,

I'm happy to follow up with yours and others' comments because I appreciate you taking the time and effort to share your thoughts. I believe communication is the only way to discuss different point of views.

I have said all along in my writing that, from my experience, BBC culture is not homogenous and we run the spectrum of those who identify exclusively with British culture to those who feel more comfortable with their Chinese culture (whether that be from Hong Kong or other parts of the world), with many BBCs in-between who have integrated their Chinese side with their British thinking and values. Within the spectrum runs a whole gamut of views about different issues, including attitudes towards mainland Chinese and culture. I don't think you can make the assumption that BBCs feel superior to other Chinese people who were born and brought up in other countries. If anything, most BBCs are influenced by the diversity and differences that exist in modern Britain and have a tolerant attitude. I have also said in my previous response to you that many BBCs feel more comfortable with other BBCs because they share the same background, and are less familiar with Chinese attitudes from other countries (although that is changing with more access to information from the web, and world travel.) That speaks to the fact that we can't assume there is one Chinese identity and that I, a BBC, can automatically understand the perspective of someone from mainland China.

From your words, I acknowledge your feelings. I think if you have this opinion you must have received comments or felt vibes from people who made you feel "less than." I'm not defending such closed-mindedness. The more we become aware and conversant of mainland Chinese culture, the more understanding will be generated and we will have a deeper dialogue.
chinaman - cultural assumptions Posted 0:49 on 16 August 2007
just re-read some of the other comments and some points people have alluded to illustrates the point im trying to make.

the truth is that mainland china is no longer feudal, what feudal attitudes were left after the revolution were pretty much done away with by the cultural revolution. much of the alledged sexism in chinese society is just that, allegations. China enjoys great gender equality compared to other east asian countries - very low incidences of domestic violence, right to abortion is assured, there is a strong NGO and quasi-governmental support network for women, women retain their name after marriage, women nearly all work, shared housework and shared childcare responsibilities is taken for granted and china is the only country in the islamic world to have female imams. its unfair to pin the value of 1960s hakka hong kong on to "the chinese".
Susan S. Cheung - cultural assumptions Posted 3:32 on 16 August 2007
Dear Chinaman,

Thank you for your further post.

In answer to your point, I can only speak from my perspective. The observations in all my writing are based on my experiences of Chinese culture from my parents' and community's viewpoints, as you said 1960s Hakka Hong Kong Chinese. I make it obvious from my articles that I'm writing from this BBC lens and not from an umbrella stance of ALL Chinese people; thus, I'm not pinning the values of 1960s Hakka Hong Kong Chinese to every Chinese.

Thank you for your insights on modern mainland China. If anything I think BBCs are guilty are knowing more about British history than Chinese history through our schooling, but this is definitely changing because of the internet, travel to China, having mainland Chinese friends or partners, Chinese movies, and a motivation to find out more.

I have met some really great mainland Chinese people in the area in which I live in the States and we have had many a lively discussion on cultural differences.
chinaman - thanks for the replies Posted 15:01 on 16 August 2007
Thank you for the replies, i wasn't commenting in order to criticise your article or standpoints, which i think is very well informed and interesting. I was just talking generally, the truth is sadly we are a very divided community still. this is true for us mainland chinese too.

I wasn't writing in order to moan at the BBCs per se, but rather to highlight some of the intra-ethnic discrimination which informs British Chinese society. I mean, how many of the people who post on this site have Fukinese asylum seeker friends? (again, not directed at you, just a general point!)
Susan S. Cheung Posted 16:58 on 16 August 2007
Dear Chinaman,

I agree with your points there are differences and divisions within the British Chinese community (we are fragmented) and there are intra-ethnic prejudices that exist in our society as in society in general. However, I think we are becoming more visible and stronger as a community with younger voices who are unafraid to speak up and discuss and debate. Greater unity and understanding comes from motivation, self-education and access to information, and sites such as DimSum are part of the process to connect and inform BBCs. I think it's great we have a growing number of visible forums to discuss and debate, including personal blogs, which didn't exist when I was seaking out BBC voices throughout the 1990s in London.

There is a saying along the lines of it takes a village to raise a child. If we take this adage and apply it to BBCs (born or based) then we each have a responsibility to learn more about Chinese culture in our own country as well as in different countries and a further responsibility, as you have done, to speak out and inform if we have an opinion and something to add to the conversation.
LNL - One broom cannot sweep well Posted 16:32 on 16 August 2007
Speaking from the viewpoint of a person, who has friends and aquaintances, covering vietnamese boat people (mid 1970s to early 1980s), Fukinese asylum seeker friends, (early 1990s to early 2000s), Hong Kong friends, clients and acquaintances since the early 1970; Malaysian & Singaporean friends from childhood; Taiwanese Chinese friends from 1970s; BBCs from since my children reached their early teens to their present age (in their 30s); and finally numerous friends, colleagues and acquaintances of caucasian origin; I can conclude 'WE ARE ALL EQUALLY GUILTY OF MAKING ASSUMPTIONS OF ANOTHER PERSON'S CULTURE, WHICH IS DIFFERENT FROM OUR OWN'.

'Assume' and you make an 'ASS' of 'U' and 'ME'.

Using one's own limited circle; and one's limited experience as a 'yardstick' limits our own horizon and future development.
Susan S. Cheung - One broom cannot sweep one wel Posted 18:48 on 16 August 2007
Dear LNL

It's great that you are following this discussion thread and I appreciate you taking the time to comment further. Thank you for raising this important issue.

I absolutely agree with your point that we are all guilty of making assumptions of another person's culture if it's different from our own. Knowing this about ourselves, I believe we need to approach differences with an open mind and attitude, and take it upon ourselves to find out more if we don't know.

For example, coming to America, I didn't assume anything about American Chinese culture, and it has been my journey for the last few years to explore the similarities and differences between BBC and ABC cultures, including conversations with Chinese friends from Vietnam and China, and the wider Asian diaspora with friends and aquaintances from Korea, Japan and South Asia. Like you, I have a really good network of friends from all corners of the world who constantly challenge and inform my thinking.

As well as that I have regular communication with BBC friends and my relatives (of all ages) in the UK to find out the latest happenings, developments and thinking. Because I am away from the UK, I work harder to find out more, through reading, discussions on the web and other means, and during my visits back to the UK.

I think we have to make great efforts to learn more and constantly challenge our assumptions and thinking. I find it useful to talk to the younger members of my extended family and children of my Chinese friends because that way I'm not stuck with the viewpoints I had growing up in the 1970s/80s and being an adult in the 1990s, and I'm not passing down to my children a one-sided point of view.

I think we need to hear voices from particular eras, viewpoints and stances because they can speak with experience, as long as we know where the person is coming from; they are not speaking for all people and they are not outright racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Knowing that we can make associations or disagreements with what the person is referencing. I really wanted to hear about the experiences of others like me growing up, but unfortunately we were more invisible back when I was growing up and there were fewer avenues to connect and discuss.

I actually think it's really brave for people to write and speak from the heart about their experiences. For me courage is not just about saving someone from a burning building, but also about speaking out with honesty and integrity. I appreciate it and strongly acknowledge it when people share their heart-felt experiences. To hear different voices and personal stories makes me feel we are connected on more levels than we think.

Therefore, I read each personal story I come across with respect and add my comments with respect, even if I disagree with the viewpoint. I think it's right we have vigorous debate, but it's too easy to criticize people without thinking how much courage it took for them to open out in the first place.
Luny - Influence of the western media Posted 14:57 on 19 August 2007
First of all, I would like to point out that I'm not against mixed relationships - I agree that it is quite possible to find love outside your own culture and race.

However, I strongly believe that our 'free choice' is not as free as we might like to think - we are all influenced by the environment in which we live and are brought up. Our friends, parents, role models, the media etc. all influence our choices in life and often these effects are subconscious.

There are no statistics on mixed Chinese marriages in the UK because the Chinese population is so small. But in the US, where the Asian population is more significant, there are such statistics. And what do they show? They show that there is a disproportionate number of Asian women in mixed marriages than Asian men. This suggests that there something at work other than pure 'free choice'.
http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml

I don't for one moment claim to be an expert on these matters, but I believe that influence of the American media is a major factor for this difference. To put it in a nutshell, Asian men are generally portrayed in the media as geeky, martial arts experts, wife beater and gamblers, but hardly ever as a sexually attractive man. In contrast, Asian women are generally portrayed as sexually attractive and almost always paired with a white guy. To test this theory for yourself, how many Asian men can you name that go against the above stereotype?

For me, isolated portrayals of Asians in these roles aren't a problem. Indeed, other races are sometimes portrayed in such roles. The problem is that there is no balance in the portrayal of Asians in the western media and this leads to the stereotypical image of the emasculated Asian man and the Suzy Wong/Lucy Liu type woman because they don't know any different. "More than half of respondents in a Playboy survey listed the race of their preferred sex partner as "Oriental." (see the following link)
http://www.colorq.org/Articles/article.aspx?d=2000&x=asianwomen#roles

The negative portrayal of Asian men in the US has reached the extent that they are sometimes belittled and dismissed as potential partners by women of their own race because they have grown up with the influence of the western media and bought into this stereotype. There are a lack of Asian role models for those growing up in the west - they often idolize western actors, actresses and pop stars.

It's no secret that there are Western men out there who fetishize Asian women base on this sterotype. Why is all this relevant to the UK? Well, because the UK is strongly influenced by American media. As I said at the beginning of my post, I have nothing against mixed relationships. But I do believe 'free choice' is more complex than it seems and that we should be aware of these issues when seeking a partner.

To finish on a light-hearted note, I read an article (non-scientific) about the amount of money males of different races in the US have to earn in order to be on a level playing field to a white male in terms of attracting a white female. I believe it was from a book call Freakonomics, which was reviewed by John Stossel on ABC. I can't find the link to the original article, but it's reposted here:
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t73071.html

The article suggests that an Asian male must earn $250,000 more than a white male to be on a level playing field, more than a black or hispanic male. While the article highly unscientific and lighthearted, it does highlight that some people may be influenced (consciously or subconsciously) in their choice of partner because they see it partly as a way of integrating or 'moving up' the social hierarchy, with caucasians being perceived as being at the top of the hierarchy.
Susan S. Cheung - Influence of the western media Posted 21:37 on 19 August 2007
Dear Luny,

Thanks for raising these really interesting points.

It would be great if BBC and ABC males would speak to the points you have raised about their "glass ceilings" in the professions and disciplines they pursue, and whether their group is stereotyped per se in the media.

From my observations, and like you I'm no expert, I think Chinese males are making strides in society. In the States, there are many successful Chinese males in all stratas of business, the professions, arts and civic life, but I suspect they may not be interested in seeking media attention and keep their heads down in their pursuit of success, perhaps because of history and stereotyping.

I believe we do need more diverse Chinese male role-models. The media does have a part to play in portraying males and females in stereotypical ways. I know many Chinese males who are not geeky, martial arts experts, gamblers and wife beaters. Among the males in my extended family there is a law enforcement officer, a civil servant, an engineer, an IT specialist, and business, sales, management, customer support and entertainment people. I know they are going about their business to the best of their abilities.

Maybe, we all have responsibilities to speak up; to show to society in general a more complete picture of Chinese males and females. What is the age old saying, the journey of a thousand miles begins with one step - and we all make those small steps each day in our daily lives.

In terms of the statistics you cite, and I have looked briefly at the link and will look over more closely later, it seems to suggest that there are significant numbers of American Asians who marry within the Asian culture, whether their own or other Asian cultures. I think you're right to say that media and the way it portrays Chinese people have an influence, along with a host of other influences such as famiy, in the way we live our lives. Part of maturing and coming to terms with our own self-identity and values is to decide what is important to us and to filter the many influences. This is an act of free choice. Part of determining self-identity is to work out the values we look for in a partner, irrespective of culture, race, religion, etc. Like the diverse fields my male relatives are in, their partners are just as diverse, with equal numbers with non-Chinese partners as are those with Chinese partners.
LNL - Media protrayal of chinese mal Posted 12:08 on 22 August 2007
The world is changing. In roads are being made by Jackie Chan, Jack Li and Chow Yong Fatt.

One observation could be, that there are more 'white male/asian female' couples because of reaction of the 'white male' to the 'white female' demand for 'equality'.

The other observation could be that BBC females finds it difficult to adapt to asian male's demand for their vision of the perfect woman. Even it UK, asian males are brought up in asian families where family values of the 'superior male' rules.

However in my family, there are more asian male/white female combination. In my teens, the 'white female' are perceived by the 'asian male' as more passionate, sexy, and approachable. The 'asian female' are perceived by the 'asian male' as reserved, unapproachable and 'lacking in sexual allure'.(Ideal wife material not lover material)

Our world is continuous changing. I tried to bring up my children with no 'male superiority' complex. However, I have one son who attain 'male superiority' concepts from his 'peer group' and although a BBC, he chose to marry 'a stay at home Chinese woman from China who is a 'look after husband' wife. I have another son, who is in a long-term partnership with a 'non-Chinese' who demand an equal contributing partnership.

When I married my husband, I was too young to 'analyse' what sort of 'partnership' my marriage was going to be. The question I asked was 'Would I regret marrying this man, even if the marriage later became a failure?. The answer was 'NO', therefore I married at the tender age of 18. We are now married for over 35 years. Do I consider the marriage a success? I cannot answer this question. In many ways the marriage is a success, in many ways, it is not. Am I happy? Yes, I am happy in myself. It is better 'having lived' then 'not having lived at all'.

Relationship is not about 'race, sex,or colour'. It is about 'personalities'. We input into a relationship our personalities, our preset psychological needs, strengths and inadequacies, and the most important is 'love' for the person in that relationship. However, the 'outside' world intrudes into this relationship, which will shape and change the individuals in this relationship. The physiological process of 'ageing' also intrude into this relationship; e.g. illness like 'depression', 'personality disorders', and 'alcohal/drug/ gambling' addictions.
Families intrude into the relationship. More so in a 'Chinese' family, because it is viewed as 'the right of the elders'.

Along the way, mistakes will be made. Along the way, we sometimes forget to show 'our love'. Remembering and making time to communicate and nuture the relationship is the hardest part in any partnership.

Relationship is personal, not only about racial divide. There are many dividers, and racial issues is sometimes one of them. However, love can overcome 'all' dividers; if the parties in that relationship are strong in mind.
Susan S. Cheung - Media portrayal of Chinese Mal Posted 19:09 on 22 August 2007
Dear LNL,

Thank you for some great observations based on your experiences.

I agree that in-roads are being made by Asian movie stars and other celebrities and men in the fields of the arts, science and business. My hope is to see more of that as each generation feels more confident and comes into its own.

There maybe some truth in in your point that BBC females may find it difficult to adapt to the Asian males' demand for their vision of the perfect female because of males' upbringing in families where the value of "superior male" rules. However, I think most BBC males want an equal partnership with their BBC partner, giving their upbringing in the wider society, their schooling and media influences.

I think the issue for the couple is to negotiate family expectations of what their roles are once they are married. Though I respect my in-laws and their place of importance in my husband and my children's life, I don't subscribe to the notion that I have to be the "dutiful" daughter-in-law in all that traditional practices dictate. This is something that modern couples work through, and indeed parents no longer expect from us what was expected of them from their respective in-laws.

I absolutely agree with you that relationships are about the individuals, about personalities and not about "race, sex, color, etc." Though you can discuss many things up to marriage/union and many people choose to live together first; the real work actually begins past the courting and marriage stage in your daily, every day, unglamorous life. Communication is hard work as we have to negotiate around personal pre-set notions, outside influences, such as family, media, work, friends, and situations arising from our daily lives. It's not "Mills and Boons" but bitty, boring, hurtful, draining as well as happy, joyful and fulfilling. As a couple, Yiu-Yin and I don't know what lies ahead in the future, but we work at it everyday to grow strong individually and as a couple. After all this time, it feels okay for him to see me in my raw emotional state and I feel stronger for it and respect and love him more for his encouragement and support.

Thank you for bringing up this point. In all our discussions about mixed relationships versus relationships within one's own culture, we forgot the bottom line is a relationship is down to two people and how they choose to live their lives together and develop as a couple.
Anonymous Posted 12:43 on 13 October 2007
BBC are second generation Chinese from HK,etc. I come from Singapore. The chinese community in UK look upon me as a foreigner. My husband is English. This makes it even worse in their eyes. My marriage works. Singaporeans are English educated and very Westernised. I have no problems living the English lifestyle in an almost white community. I was the only non-English person in this town when I first arrived 35 years ago and have been accepted by everyone. My mother-in-law is a better mother to me than my own mother. She is gentle, caring and loving. She said that I am the best daughter-in-law she has.
The chinese community is very insular. They refuse to accept people who lead a slightly different lifestyle to them. My daughter doesn't look like chinese. At university, the chinese students clicked together and had nothing to do with her. She was one of the few 'Chinese' who studied Media Production. The Chinese students have to learn to mix a little more with other races and be more tolerant. The Chinese can have very racist attitudes towards everyone who isn't a Chinese. We call them 'foreign devils'. How racist can this remark be? Everyone who isn't a Chinese is a devil. Only Chinese are people. This is a very offensive attitude to someone who only see us in a distance in a restaurant. We have cut ourselves off from the rest of society, then moan about being isolated.
The problems the BBC have in inter-racial relationships stem from the generatiion before them. It is a problem that would take a few more generations to erase. Until we can accept everyone in the world is equal and the same, there will be racial conflict in the Chinese community.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 0:53 on 16 October 2007
Dear Anonymous,

Thank you for sharing your story and your experiences over the years.

I agree with many of your points. I think with the older generations their suspicion of differences comes from fear and they have a "siege mentality" in that they had to overcome so much prejudice in their lives it becomes a filter for how they deal with people including fellow Chinese.

I think it is beginning to change as second and third generations are breaking the mould and having relationships with people they love and not prescribed by their parents. This is a small breakthrough and, as you say, it will take a few generations to make the leaps and transitions to be inclusive.

I'm glad you've had positive experiences in an inter-racial partnership.
Jeff Minter Posted 5:34 on 21 October 2007
It's not a generation thing, my parents are both perfectly fine with their kids going out with other races.

I'm more concerned with the chinese female-white male ratio and vice versa; I was in town today and saw an oriental male-white female couple... "At last!" I was thinking.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 5:52 on 21 October 2007
Dear Jeff,

I think more of the older generation have adapted and come to accept their children going out with other races. It's great that your parents are understanding. Certainly, my family are now more accepting than they ever were and this is due to various factors such as longer time in the UK and accepting reality.

I think there are oriental male-white female couples, athough I'm not sure numbers compared to oriental female and white male partnerships. Just in my family, one of my brothers has a white partner and they have a son together, and a few of my male cousins are with white partners.
Jeff Posted 21:24 on 21 October 2007
I read it somewhere in a govt. report a couple of years ago; probably still on their statistics website - it was double the number for chinese female compared to males marrying outside their race. Compared to other races - asians of both sexes were roughly the same, african origin males married significantly more than that of females - seems that chinese males are getting the crap end of the bargain.


Of course, nothing is more evident than walking in the street, social places etc.

Furthermore
chinaman - jeff's right Posted 17:55 on 29 October 2007
As a first generation mainlander who have been in relationships with white, black and south asian girls (not at the same time :p) with my parents very enthusiastic approval. I have to say those who pretend this is a generation/conservatism thing are actually making the picture blurrier.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 3:42 on 1 November 2007
Dear Chinaman,

I think that you and Jeff Minter have been lucky that your parents have been open to and approving of you going out with people who are not Chinese.

I don't think I and others are "pretending" it's a generation/conservatism thing. For many of us it is a generation/convervatism thing; it's a reality that many are worried about their parents' reactions to them dating someone non-Chinese and what that would mean for their relationship with their parents/family. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say many have been afraid to tell their parents because of fear of negative reactions and the fear of being disowned.

Having said all that, I don't think all first generation immigrants to the UK have such conservative views and many families have adapted to and embraced the reality of their children dating and marrying non-Chinese.

The bottom line is it is a blurry picture.
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