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sp
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 218
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 Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:05 pm Post subject: 'Face' |
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| Why is it that 'face' is so important amongst Chinese people? Is it a good thing? Would less emphasis placed on 'face' ease conflicts in many aspects of our lives, from family disputes to international squabbles? |
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mayling03
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 4
Location: North
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| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Face, well it is a big thing, especially with my father, sometimes I wish they would just back down, the world would be a better place for it, more peaceful anyway. I can thankfully say oth my father and mother are very stubborn people. I also wish I would back down! |
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LaoFuZhi
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Face is not limited to Chinese culture......
It's an integral part of Celtic culture too. And many others. My personal belief ifs that the concept is central to civillised behaviour.
On the one hand the need to not only maintain one's own 'face' but respect the need for the same need in others is actually a very well balanced and honourable approach.... Even if one DOES have the upper hand, not destroying another person's standing is the key to progress and honourable compromise....
On another hand those who fail to embrace the concept fully actually work against it's spirit....
Those who TRULY understand and respect the concept will always leave room for an honourable compromise. If only our political overlords understood such honourable concepts we would live in a calm and peaceful world.... |
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GundamRX78
Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 10
Location: London
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:26 pm Post subject: English people also |
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English People also need to have "face" in front of people, that's why too many English "Faked" Gentlemen.
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I love Hong Kong |
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LaoFuZhi
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Quite so.....
There is though a difference between merely maintaining a facade and actually trying to maintain an honourable balance.... Whilst the former is a veneer the latter can and should lead to a moderation in behaviour and attitude...
Something so few achieve. |
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GweiLo
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I don't agree. I think "face" is damaging and dishonest. I do not understand it as being the same thing as "reasonableness" or "politeness". "Face" implies that whatever the situation, no matter what you have done and what harm you have caused, you should not be made to accept responsibility.
My Father in Law told his associates, when thier children married westerners, that they should not have permitted it and that he never would. Now that his daughter is married to a westerner instead of being reasonable or polite, his only interest is in saving face. The fact that others pay the price (his daughter and his wife particularly who now have to communicate behind his back and are both deeply hurt by his actions) for his obstinacy is of little consequence to him. All that matters is that he should not now be humiliated by anyone discovering the truth.
I think face does prevent many Chinese from dealing with difficult situations effectively. Actually, I don't just think it, I know it. Many (and by that I reckon easily more than 50%) of the Chinese people I know (and since we largely know the same people SP I ain't going to get to specific), have some sort of dispute/disagreement that has been swept under the carpet and left to fester because it isn't done to talk about contentious issues. It is an issue that comes up time and time again in the company of Chinese friends.
The trouble is that if you don't talk about things you don't find solutions, make compromises, or reach understandings. |
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LaoFuZhi
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Gwei Lo,
I suspect we 'know' each other of old from another forum. Therefore you may well recall parts of and be somewhat familiar with my own story...
I have certainly come across what masquerades as 'face' and it's had terrible implications both in for my own life and that of my former fiance. FI was killed in a road accident not-quite two years ago. A final and terrible blow, but one that brought about a curious change of heart.
Her Father and more surprisingly his older Brother contacted me and apologised for what they had done.
As it was explained to me it was for him a question of balance. He had to maintain face with the family back in HK. Particularly by his older Brother. Objections were raised when Fi and I got engaged. On visiting HK to be introduced to the family I gave a good account of myself. I embraced enough of the culture to 'pass muster'. there was nothing but my colour to object to; So it was tolerated... just!
On the premature birth and loss of our daughter though (out of wedlock) a storm ensued. And her Father faced a choice. Restore 'face' in front of the family and hurt his own daughter and a boy to whom he was the nearest thing to a Father. Or be cut off from the family completely, and to some extent from the local Chinese community, which was much smaller at that time.
The man made a choice. One that I can't and won't defend. I don't know your Father in Law. So please forgive my assumptions. But if your life's philosophy was bound to an essentially racist tennet, it would be very difficult to let go of it. To the point where it's a question of where the greatest personal loss lies.
Reading between the lines I see anger and hurt for the damage this man's actions have caused someone I know is very precious to you. And the fact that he hides behind what should be an honourable concept only makes matters worse.......
There is also perhaps the point that for a generation older than ours. And we are both are we not in our 40's? Our Father's generation sometimes had a very odd perspective on marriage and partnership. A wife was something you acquired. Like a good watch or a camera you get one that will last you a lifetime... And the attitude seemed to be more about owning your wife and kids rather than having the sort of bond we're perhaps more familiar with......
That attitude still exists in some quarters.. And again it's something I won't defend nor can ever really understand. But it's existance does explain a few things....
>>>I think face does prevent many Chinese from dealing with difficult situations effectively. <<<
I think face is often used as an excuse not to deal with things effectively.... But then an excuse is only ever that; and never really a reason!
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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The concept of ‘Face’ in the context of East Asian culture, is the equivalent to the Western concept of ‘Etiquette’, Ladies & Gentlemen...
Certain cultures have a tendency to develop and build-in various ‘cultural-mechanisms’(local customs) in order to bring about a more civilised society, and can be very specific to that culture or even country, the point LaoFuZhi had previously mentioned.
| LaoFuZhi wrote: | Face is not limited to Chinese culture......
It's an integral part of Celtic culture too. And many others. My personal belief ifs that the concept is central to civillised behaviour. |
The perception of ‘Face’ amongst Chinese parents, has more to do with their cultural surroundings, and social environment. Unlike the youthful UK Chinese generation who has grown up, and experienced life from very different angles, where ‘Face’ is no longer needed(?).
Replaced by some other ‘cultural-mechanism’, to bring about a civilised society in the 21st century in a completely different environment, For example ‘Image’, what are you wearing?, what car do you drive?, etc...
The roots of this concept is really ‘respect, trust, and honesty’, and will not change in my opinion 100yrs+, because this very idea has not changed since and before the birth of Christ and Buddha.
Japanese culture is a good example where ‘Face’ has taken the extreme end literally. The stereotypical saying ‘Never offend them!’, give it a go and you will see their reactions. Possibly Japanese culture has developed an extremely sensitive approach to the concept of ‘Face’, and this has been a disadvantage, especially in both the globalisation of jobs and the digital age. Where people will encounter others from contrasting cultures and behaviours.
It is true Chinese family disputes with ‘face’ sometimes creates friction, but nothing that is not a real issue. ‘Face & Traditional Chinese Culture’ isn’t the best example to chose for this debate, look at the Middle East crisis?
Maybe ‘Face & its irrelevancy in Contemporary Chinese Culture’ is a worth while discussion? |
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eye_candy1870
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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If you dont adopt the chinese cultural trait of 'saving face' what do you have?
The alternative is of how people behave here in council estates.
If you disgrace your family, you should be an outcast for the rest of your life (this includes your children).
Far too many BBC's dont respect their parents these days and only think of their self interests...I wonder where they get this from... |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:57 am Post subject: |
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'Face' does not belong solely to Chinese culture, if you can be bothered to read other peoples comments.
| eye_candy1870 wrote: | | If you dont adopt the chinese cultural trait of 'saving face' what do you have? |
Council estates tend to be full of people from working class and unemployed backgrounds, a dumping ground for societies outcast. If people encounter unpleasant behaviour on a day-to-day basis, then this will have an effect on the person, giving reason to their behaviour.
| Quote: | | The alternative is of how people behave here in council estates. |
Disgracing your family may have been a normal thing to do in Old China, but not in today's modern society even in 21st century China.
| Quote: | | If you disgrace your family, you should be an outcast for the rest of your life (this includes your children). |
BBC's in your opinion tend to not respect their parents, is partly due to many many reasons. One of the key things is the issue of 'Identity', basically BBC's are confused, and confusion can sometimes bring about abnormal behaviour, that does not fit into mainstream British society.
| Quote: | | Far too many BBC's dont respect their parents these days and only think of their self interests...I wonder where they get this from... |
To be honest I feel you are a very confused individual who is trying to find answers to your confusion. Unpleasant experiences you have had to go through. An inmature aspect of you personality, left-over from puberty.
Apart from taking it out on other forum users, creating friction and not contributing positively, in my opinion you would be banned from this website!
East Asians have a tendancy to give people a second chance, an oportunity to learn from there mistakes, and become a better and balanced person than you were before. This is your second chance!
If you respect others, they will respect you in the same way.
If you shout at a person, they will shout back twice as hard at you!
If you speak softly to a person, they will speak very softly back to you. |
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GweiLo
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | If you dont adopt the chinese cultural trait of 'saving face' what do you have?
The alternative is of how people behave here in council estates.
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Is ironic coming from someone who has no regard for "face" whatsoever as is apparent from these posts.
Starlet said "I can think for myself!" and the response was:
[quote="eye_candy1870"]starlet,
I dont think you can little one..I wonder whats going on in that head of yours, only you will know that./quote]
When pwoi explained that her Chinese husbands mum was mainly concerned that she was a foot taller than hubby the response was:
| eye_candy1870 wrote: | | I think you got some strange midget fetish that involves a standing position... |
When wonderstuff mentioned that his wife was Taiwanese in the contaxt of a discussion about mixed race relationship the response was:
| eye_candy1870 wrote: | | I think you got some strange midget fetish that involves a standing position... |
On one thread is this, completely unprovoked and directed at amyip
| eye_candy1870 wrote: | amy,
its 'girls' like you that make white men think they can chat up my gf. But I know not all chinese girls fall within your remit.
One rotten apple often spoils the barrel... |
It is complete hypocrasy to pontificate on the importance of face in chinese culture and spend half of ones time on these boards insulting other people.
Isn't this just another example of "face" being just an excuse not to take responsbility for ones own actions? Surely that is all it amounts to if you don't give face to others? |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Insulting others is not the way forward, life is too short for this. Popbitch.com may be the best place for people like eye_candy1870.
| Quote: | | It is complete hypocrasy to pontificate on the importance of face in chinese culture and spend half of ones time on these boards insulting other people. |
A perfect example!
| Quote: | | Isn't this just another example of "face" being just an excuse not to take responsbility for ones own actions? Surely that is all it amounts to if you don't give face to others? |
'Face' is strongly associated with East Asian culture, the same with 'Democracy' has a tendency to be associated with the West. I am no Historian, therefore I can not pin-point the origins of both ideas. Every region or country has there own take on Democracy, but it is not called Democracy, for East Asians it is 'Face'.
One thing many people will have realised, these core ideas is about creating a civilised community. But this concept can be subverted, creating the hypocritical behaviours that we tend to see, for example eye_candy1870
If a person claims to be a Buddhist Monk, then you expect that individual to follow the lifestyle which make them a Monk. It is no point claiming to be a Buddhist, going out drinking 10 pints of lager every night, later followed by a Kebab, shouting verbal abuse to passerbys, and then sticking your tongue down some girls throat, at the same time fondling her breast;) |
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lyllee
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 12
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 10:47 am Post subject: |
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LOL :)
I always thought that "face" was there to safeguard communities from being eroded by ideologies that that particular village did not approve of. "Face" seemed to be villages' ways of making big problems into smaller ones? Mind you, I think the idea of "face" was invented by men, as they always seem to be the ones putting them on. |
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sp
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 218
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| lyllee wrote: | | "Face" seemed to be villages' ways of making big problems into smaller ones? |
I would say the opposite! Face seems to me to turn minor misunderstandings or disagreements into serious arguments, and can cause people to become absurdly stubborn, all in the name of 'not admitting defeat'.
| Quote: | | Mind you, I think the idea of "face" was invented by men, as they always seem to be the ones putting them on. |
True, true. I wonder if this is tied in with the old fashioned view that 'to be a man is to be right'?
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Isn't it time you joined?
http://www.britishchinese.org.uk/ |
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porkscratchings
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 112
Location: BirmingHAM
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| LaoFuZhi - me thinks i know who u r, but don't worry, i'm glad ur back. Missed ur humour mate. |
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