homophobia in chinese culture

sunj · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 9

Porkscratchings:

I see things rather differently concerning your view of affording people respect. I see no higher respect I can give someone other than telling the truth. This does not mean "shoving the gay thing down their throats", but speaking frankly about myself as I have absolutely positively nothing to hide or be ashamed of. I'm not pinning down some poor unsuspecting soul and forcing them to talk about homosexuality. I reiterate that this comes up in conversation far more often than you seem to suggest. It is not the only part of me, by any means, but sexuality is indeed an important part of all of us, gay or straight. So to answer your question, no, I am not like the lady you described. I don't believe gay people deserve more rights than anybody else...only the same rights. This includes the right to talk about ourselves openly...not to mention a whole host of other statutory rights like the ones KFC referred earlier! Other people have the right to not participate in the discussion, so I am unsure where you think the gay thing might be shoved down people's throats? Take this dimsum forum, for example. I'm really glad that this topic has generated a degree of interest and a range of opinions. You and many others have responded by voicing your comments (great!), but those others who have no wish to talk about it simply don't bother.

KFC:

Personally, I believe the right time to correct a mistake is when the mistake is made. You don't do anyone any favors by allowing them to progress a discussion with false assumptions. There is no doubt that it is useful to be able to measure someone's reaction to what you have to say. For example, confronting a potentially violent situation, or facing the prospect of discrimination in the work place are just two examples where your self interest may be a stake if you don't gauge the likely response appropriately. However, getting to know someone or meeting people in a social situation, using our previous example, is usually quite free from these perils. I do not intend to impress people when I meet them, nor do I set out to proselytize. But when I am getting know someone and vice versa, what better time to correct a wrong assumption than straight away when it is made? I don't necessarily think that just because someone has known you to be a pre-eminent cardiovascular surgeon or England's highest scoring football hero or down right nice person that you will change how someone feels about homosexuality. Rather, they probably will say something like: "it's such a shame...he's such a bright guy, BUT he's gay." Does this make sense?

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

Just a thought: In English there are probably dozens of anti-gay 'names' that people use against homosexuals. Are there anywhere near as many in Chinese? I am only aware of one Chinese term for 'gay' which I believe translates as 'someone who likes the same sex'. Does this tell us anything about the difference between western and Chinese attitudes?

KFC · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5

I value people who feel honesty is the best policy, and maybe I have become rather cynical in my old age, as I no longer believe this any more. There was a time that I would have shared your view…

Sometimes I think it helps for people to see that you are human before all of the usual stereotypes about gay people set into their minds, if they can get past this then great, but more often than not they don’t. I feel that once they know you as a person, it becomes harder for them to apply the stereotypes

In answer to your question SP I am only aware of two terms, which refer to homosexuality,

Gay lau,
Tung seng lin

The first term basically means gay man and the second one means same sex, I am sure my translations are rubbish as my Chinese is nowhere near as good as my English. But neither of these terms are considered offensive as far as I know.

I don’t think it does mean that the attitudes are necessarily different but certainly the response will be in accordance to the sum of the individual’s experience, etiquette, confidence and even environment. I question the value of proving whether is homophobia is a predominantly an English/western attitude or a Chinese attitude.
Though having said that I think this is relevant to your point. Western non-specific insults tend to be about sex and genitalia, whereas the Chinese ones that I am aware of, seem to be about intelligence and stature. This maybe an indication of what is important in the culture creating the attitude and hence the lengths of which an individual will go to hide something that they perceive to be shameful. For example the use of material goods to hide being poor, the use of complex language to hide being unintelligent, and taking part in homophobic jokes to hide being gay. We are all creatures who ideally want to fit in with what is generally accepted as normal.

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It's Finger Licking Good

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

Sunj,

I agree with your view of according someone the greatest respect by telling the truth. But this requires tact when dealing with people you don't know. A fear of discussion is not necessarily homophobia, you need to find out what it is before putting people off accepting gay people by your need to correct people immediately.

People who don't talk about gay issues are not necessarily anti-gay, nor can it be taken to mean they have no opinion. You may want to talk about it openly, but you must respect and consider those who don't want to talk about it. I'm not sure you have actually read my posts, since my explanation of not shoving uncomfortable topics at people and communities who don't want to talk about it, is very clear. I see that you do want the Chinese community to talk about gay issues, but I think they don't want to and that desire on their part needs to be respected. That is not the same as talking to people (like us who have submitted our views here)who don't mind talking about it. The issue is not about censorship but respect.

I think you need to understand Chinese attitudes to gays are not the same as western attitudes. The lack of discussion in the Chinese community on the topic does not equal lack of respect for gays. It means the community hasn't really given thought to gay people, hence the lack of insults for gays in Chinese. This actually gives gays an unrivalled opportunity to influence that opinion in a positive way.

I live in Birmingham in the UK where the gay area is bang next to the Chinese area where there are restaurants, shops for these two communities. Gays often spill over into the Chinese areas - and no one seems bothered about it. Yet the Chinese still don't talk about it. I see this a positive thing as the two communities are interacting with each other on their own terms, unencumbered by the liberal attitudes to race and sexuality. Gays friends think it is fantastic that they are treated as humans first by the Chinese community, not as gays first then human. I get more problems going to gay areas as a straight person with gay friends than going to Chinese areas with gay people. So I think you understand my views on hypocrites.

As a straight person who socialise with gay friends, I also have problems with mainstream UK society. People often cast slurs on my sexuality because of my friends i.e. "this person hangs out with gays, they must be gay themselves". I don't get this attitude from the Chinese community when I introduce gay friends to people.

I think the problem does not lie with the Chinese community but on both the gay and the straight mainstream westernised society. How is it possible for straights to accept gays when they are condemned by both the straight and the gay community for doing so?
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Porkscratchings

johnsoncbis · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 9

porks, pleae do not confuse the two words
knowledge is information, power is a word to describe something. what you do with the knowledge does not neccessarily mean you exercise power.
the strength of silence is sometimes stronger than a tensed fists.
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sayonara

sunj · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 9

Yes, KFC, it is ironic that these 'favorable' loop holes exist because gay relationships are not recognized in law. I think, though, this is a small consolation. As for the military, I think the uniforms is the only aspect that I find remotely appealing.

lees · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 1

Hi there sunj,

I think Chinese are less open to the homosexuality thing.

Thinking out loud, I'd say that one could divide "Chinese" roughly into two lots, with regard to the homosexuality issue: a) Those who are living in a more or less Chinese monoculture (PRC, Taiwan, HK, Singapore) and b) The minority Chinese all over the western world.

In the former case they would be less open to homosexuality in the western sense simply because they've been less exposed to it. They would not have experienced the whole discussion thing, with openly gay people on TV etc from the 80's and 90's. That's the reason I think they would be more closed.

In the latter case, migrants abroad tend to hold on to the cultural patterns as they were when they left "home", so they tend to be more conservative, preserving a way of life which might not even exist anymore in their place of origin. That's why I think that despite their exposure to modern liberal ideas about homosexuality, they might not be particularly open either.

In other words, either way you lose.

But there you go, change happens, and acceptance of homosexuality is gradually happening both in the monocultures (for example, films such as Crystal Boys, or East Palace West Palace) as well as in the migrant communities.

My parents, as you may know (if you're who I think you are :-), are migrants from Malaysia to Australia, and they are very accepting of my being gay.

Anyway, nice to run into you here (I was actually looking for information on Hokkien dialect speakers!)

Take care,
lees

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

Is it true that white gay men in the UK are quite racist, perhaps even more openly racist than straight people? This is something I've heard.

eye_candy1870 · Joined: 08 May 2003 Posts: 86

I'd like to convey that I have no problem whats so ever about bi sexual chinese girls.

Parson'sPleasure · Joined: 22 Mar 2003 Posts: 3

Hey Candy,

Have you had a licking from a girl lately?
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Everything In Life Can Be Fun.

emem · Joined: 22 May 2003 Posts: 39

Parson's Pleasure, you are offending a girl, in public web page. I think that is extremely sexist, and slightly homophobic.

You really should apologize.
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EM

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