homophobia in chinese culture

sunj · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 9

I wonder what is the general feeling towards homosexuality amongst the british chinese community. I am a chinese-american living in London with my british partner, and I get the impression that gay and lesbian chinese people in this country suffer from a double dose of invisibility, being a minority within a minority.

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

Hi Sunj,

I've got mates who are gay - and my folks have no issue with gay people. But that doesn't mean they are happy to go round talking about it. This confession stuff is so western.

sunj · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 9

I find your comment is self-contradictory, Porkscratchings.

Why shouldn't people 'go around talking about IT' if they don't have an issue with IT. I grew up thinking I was the only chinese person in the world who was gay, and it was exactly because no one 'talked about IT' that made me feel this way. Not talking about IT when people suffer discrimination, not to mention intimidation and harrassment because of IT only perpetuates a feeling of isolation. People talk all the time about their heterosexual girl/boyfriends and make casual comments about who is good looking, etc...the dimsum forum included...so why shouldn't gay people feel at liberty to talk about their girl/boyfriends of the same sex or comment about who of the same sex is good looking, etc.???

This has nothing at all to do with 'confession', as you say. Nor is it about being 'western'. For example, do you think all those postings on the inter-racial relationship topic are western because they are of a 'confessional' nature?. No, it is about feeling free to be yourself, and being accepted by your own community for who you are. I hope you can see the difference.

johnsoncbis · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 9

Sunj!
i agree entirely with what you said in your last paragraph.
i personally do not know of any chinese gay people or lesbians but have seen one or two about from both sexes may i add. having not spoken to them i do however feel that they are not entirely easy in public.

personally i'd say, be whoever you want to be, everyoe is free to do so. and yes, maybe its time for the chinese community to know that homosexuality does exist even in Chinese people.

i say go ahead
to be perfectly honest, i dont think that anyone would be worried if you or anyone spoke openly about it. there's been gay white, blacks, indians, what would be the shock to learn that chinese can also be gay.

peace
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sayonara

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

I think all mainstream, heterosexual cultures have a degree of homophobia. I would say Chinese people are more homophobic than westerners, based on my the people I know. In the UK, I actually think gay Chinese men are more accepted than straight Chinese men, because they are not perceived as 'competition' by mainstream, straight, male society. In that sense, I believe it is straight, Chinese men who have the tougher time, whereas the Chinese community itself is less tolerant. Anyway, I think it's a complex issue.
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sunj · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 9

Thanks for your feedback. I think feeling free to be who you are has 2 sides to it: (1) your own acceptance of who you are, and (2) the degree of other people's acceptance of who you are. The first goes without saying, but the second point about being accepted by your own community is also very important since we are social creatures after all. The irony is that sometimes I feel more at ease in non-chinese circles because that is where my sexuality seems less of a taboo. This goes to the heart of Porkscratching's comments about not going around talking about 'it', and my initial question about double invisibility. I have heard shockingly ignorant (not to mention racist) comments before from chinese people about homosexuality being a 'western disease'.

I don't think there is any 'maybe' about it...it is long overdue that the chinese community accepts that homosexuality has existed in chinese history, does exist now, and will always exist amongst chinese people, just as in all peoples. I do not have much experience with chinese/east-asian political activism in this country, but it is interesting that theLegacy mentions black and south-asian groups. My impression is that some of the most vociferous advocates of these groups can at the same time be extremely homophobic...perhaps because they feel that gay members of their own communities might somehow undermine their credibility??

I am surprised by sp's impression that straight chinese men have a tougher time than gay chinese men. I never realized that straight chinese men are perceived as being 'competition'. The impression I get from reading some of the other threads of discussion on this site is quite the opposite. Maybe you can elaborate, sp? ...and what about gay chinese women? Is a predominantly patriarchal chinese culture ready to accept gay women?

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

Gay Chinese men are 'easier' to accept in a white, straight, male-dominated society. The same goes for any race really. It goes back to the ingrained fear of other races 'taking our women', to put it bluntly. Gay Chinese men pose a lesser threat to the status quo than straight Chinese men. Just as Chinese women and Chinese children do too. This is why when you see representations of Chinese people, you will always see more women and children - people have less of a problem with this. Put another way:

This is white, western, male society's common view:

Chinese women = attractive, no threat, potential mate, desireable
Chinese children = no threat, cute
Gay Chinese men = no threat, weak, effeminate
Straight Chinese Male = DANGER DANGER! Competition for jobs and women! ALERT! LAUNCH RACISM DEFENCE MECHAMISM!!

That's what I think anyway.

Merry Xmas.

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

Quote: from sunj on 4:28 am on Dec. 24, 2002
I find your comment is self-contradictory, Porkscratchings.

Why shouldn't people 'go around talking about IT' if they don't have an issue with IT. I grew up thinking I was the only chinese person in the world who was gay, and it was exactly because no one 'talked about IT' that made me feel this way. Not talking about IT when people suffer discrimination, not to mention intimidation and harrassment because of IT only perpetuates a feeling of isolation. People talk all the time about their heterosexual girl/boyfriends and make casual comments about who is good looking, etc...the dimsum forum included...so why shouldn't gay people feel at liberty to talk about their girl/boyfriends of the same sex or comment about who of the same sex is good looking, etc.???

This has nothing at all to do with 'confession', as you say. Nor is it about being 'western'. For example, do you think all those postings on the inter-racial relationship topic are western because they are of a 'confessional' nature?. No, it is about feeling free to be yourself, and being accepted by your own community for who you are. I hope you can see the difference.
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I can see the difference - but you can't. You put this up to get people's opinion, when you get it, you moan about it.
If you want to talk about it - then do so, but respect the right of people who don't want to talk about it. If you truly want people's opinion, then be prepared for the fact that the opinion will not be censored to your idea of good taste.

As for the "western" - the whole shebang of bringing everything out into the open is western. This is not saying it is not allowed - stop adding things to my comments.

I believe in each to their own - those who want to discuss, can discuss it; those who don't want to talk about it should have rights too. You talk about freedom to be yourself - until you are willing to give that freedom to other people, you are underserving of it.

I see no contradiction in my thoughts.

I do not see homosexuality as a western disease - it is common to all species of animal and all races of human. I see the worse kind of human as those who cry out for their rights, but who are then to deny them for others.

Sp - My knowledge of the views of the far right tells me they want all non Whites to be sent back to the countries they come from, and the disabled, Jews and gay people to be killed off. Nowhere does it say that Chinese gays are non-threatening. Mainstream society accepts a milder, more PC version of the above-sited views, but they do not see gays of any race to be non-threatening as you say. A friend who is gay found this out when he admitted to being gay at his workplace. Big mistake. You don't believe me? Come out publicly as a gay person and sample the hate for yourself. And this from people who don't subscribe to v right wing views.
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Porkscratchings

KFC · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5

In response to your thread, Sunj

I generally feel that chinese people are not homophobic at all, but homosexuality tends not to be the topic of discussion.

Regardless whether you are chinese or not, there is difficulty in 'coming out', often the fear is the reaction of family and friends not to mention the public out there who may feel uncomfortable with someone gay in their presence. I understand that you feel strongly that if it was discussed more openly, then if the 'vibes' are favourable it would be easier to 'come out'.

To clarify, If the discussion occurred and the comments are for example "My mate and his boyfriend have been going out for last two years, they're like a married couple." Then it is easier, but if the comments were, "backs to the wall lads here comes Dave" then the situation would be different.

Should we follow the route of openness or the route of silence?

I believe neither unless it occurs naturally within the culture and also within the conversation.

If however it does not occur naturally in the conversation, then i believe that it should not be shoved down peoples throats because this will alienate individuals who are not ordinarily Homophobic.

SP - with regards to whether Homosexuals are considered to
be non-threatening, i would totally disagree for the following reasons

1 Islam and Christianity both consider it to be unnatural.
2 Where do you think the terms "Botty bandit", "Pillow muncher", "Don't turn your backs to them" comes from?
3 IF they are not considered threatening why can't they join the army or the navy?

4 Why can't they get married legally in Britain

5 Why can they not adopt children as a couple, when a single person can!

Society fears what it does not understand.

I apologise for some of the quotes i have used, but this further illustrates a frank and open discussion.

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It's Finger Licking Good

sunj · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 9

Whoa there, Porkscratchings! Take it easy and chill out...I didn't intend for my reply to come across as aggressive, only passionate. I am not trying to censor your views at all. In fact, I wish to debate/discuss our differences/similarities. I thought that's what this forum is about. If you don't agree, then say so, and put your views forward and explain why you feel this way. Don't be too trigger-happy with wild allegations ("worst kind of human", for example) at the first blow.

I am not advocating forcing people to talk about homosexuality when they don't wish to. It is just as KFC says...only when it comes up naturally in discussion that I wish people who _do_ wish to talk about it feel at ease and free to talk about it. My point is it is more common than you think that this topic will come up naturally, particularly if you are in a social situation and people ask you questions about your life. So on this point, I would disagree with KFC. Of course, homosexuality rarely makes an appearance in chinese discussions in an abstract sense, but conversations often revolve around more personal details...especially in chinese circles when people ask willy-nilly whether you are married or not. Besides, people often describe events in the first person plural (we) if they are in a relationship and they, for example, went on holiday together or painted their house together or any of a huge number of very mundane things in life. So many times have I experienced people making assumptions referring to my partner as 'she'. I invariably correct them. Usually the reaction is "oh, sorry" and the conversation carries on normally. Other times, the reaction is different and people are embarrassed into silence. You are not 'denying' anyone's freedom, as you put it, by talking about yourself openly. Just because someone may not wish to talk about it doesn't give them the right to censor you. This is precisely the contradiction I find in your comments. Everyone has a right to talk _and_ also a right to not listen. If you choose not to listen, then simply don't participate in the discussion, but you can't stop someone else from talking.

As for the hate you get from people who don't even subscribe to v right wing views...well, I don't think any hatred justifies silencing anyone. If someone is brave enough to take a risk and come out at work or anywhere, then good on them. I am not saying everyone _should_ come out if they are gay. It is a very personal decision. But should they choose to do so, then I fully support them in standing up. Unless people start doing this, then there is no chance of changing the hatred that is out there. The homophobic jibes that KFC mentions (batty bandit, pillow muncher, etc.) are a good example. I hear this too often, mostly used as a general term of abuse, but often too targetting gay people. If people don't start saying to the perpetrators that this is offensive stuff, then it's just going to go on and on. Of course, I'm not stupid enough to mouth back to violent prone gang of youths, but this sort of language is used in far less threatening situations...shop floor, office, etc. KFC hit the nail on its head, in my humble opinion, remarking that "society fears what it does not understand". How can socity's ignorance about a particular subject be enlightened if no one talked about it??

johnsoncbis · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 9

Hey Sunj!
not a surprise at all by porks reply to your article, hes/she like that, i think it is aging and its ability to defend his /her ego has aged with it. sometimes his views are very correct, sometimes his views are rather wild, it thnks it down to the fact that he doesnt come in touch with the younger people anymore.

i grew up in a generation where our parents run a chinese takeaway and we as children were nto allowed to play out much. when this generation of chinese went to university we were learning the facts of life we should have learned 5-6 years ago.
so i think because or partly due to this fact, those poeple under this have a difficult time not only with indentifying with themselves but also they have to think their age without the neccessary experience.

i speak not to disprove what anyone says but speak what i do know.

kind regards
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sayonara

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

HA HA HA - Oh, I'm killing myself laughing! Your guesses are all wrong - try again!

My opinions are not PC, that much is true - because I actually take time to ask people of all age groups what they think, instead assuming that the opinion of people I hang out with is representative of all Chinese. Same with stuff I learn at college - I don't assume a learned opinion on race is more true than what a particular ethnic group might think.

My childhood is different to yours - I had to make adult decisions while still a child coz my parents couldn't communicate in English. Sorry if this makes me act older than my years. I think you need to rethink your very obvious prejudice against old people...

Sunj,

Sorry for the strong stuff! I am very passionate about beating up hypocrites especially the type who ask for more rights only to deny them to others.

I have met a black lady who is opinionated on black rights - that black people must have more concessions to push them up in mainstream society. I asked her what she thought about gay people as she is a christian. She replied they will burn in hell, as homosexuality is unnatural and an offence to God. Hypocrite indeed.

I felt your views to be similar to hers, though not as strong.

I never said anything about censoring your right to talk, or anything about not wanting to listen. Nor did I say you cannot respond to people's rude comments. I want you to respect the person who are talking to and not shove the gay thing down their throats. That has been my only point. It is sad that people refuse to see what is in front of them but chooses to see what they want to see.

KFc said: "Should we follow the route of openness or the route of silence?
I believe neither unless it occurs naturally within the culture and also within the conversation.
If however it does not occur naturally in the conversation, then i believe that it should not be shoved down peoples throats because this will alienate individuals who are not ordinarily Homophobic."

I agree with KFC's point 100%. Respect the person you talk to and respect the community you talk to.

You are an ambassador to the gay and chinese community. How you treat people will shape their attitudes to you and what you represent. You convert more people to your viewpoint by being prepared to listen to their views, even though it might upset you. The black lady's view upset me, as I have gay friends. But it puts me in touch with what people really think, not what they are reported to think. Then I can frame my argument better to convince people to see things differently. If you are too aggressive in ramming your views down people's throats, as KFc states, you will do more harm to your goal of being accepted.

My views on the worst kind of human is not a wild allegation, but a statement of what I believe - I think it to be true of the lady I mentioned earlier. The question I want to ask is - is it true of you?

(Edited by porkscratchings at 3:04 am on Dec. 27, 2002)
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Porkscratchings

KFC · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5

Sunj,

I accept that people do ask about your life. Though having said that, the subject of my sexuality rarely makes an appearance. For example. people don't tend to ask me am i Gay? or ask me whether i have a goodfriend? They assume that i am heterosexual and pass comments similar to "Look at the tits on that!" This is only my individual view and i am aware that this may not be everyone else's experience.

Quote from Sunj - "So many times have I experienced people making assumptions referring to my partner as 'she'. I invariably correct them. Usually the reaction is "oh, sorry" and the conversation carries on normally. Other times, the reaction is different and people are embarrassed into silence.

You have experienced both reactions, this i have no doubt. The first group may feel that it is perfectly normal and continue the conversation, or they maybe better at hiding their reaction. The second group become uncomfortable and hence the conversation is muted.

I have a confession to make, I was in the group that was uncomfortable but was able hide it well. I have come to understand the Gay community through my friendships and interactions with this community.

So with this in mind i ask why do you feel the need to correct them straight away, possibly better to leave it until they know you better and then correct them when they are more ready to accept you.

Why wait?

I have a very good friend who had an extremely racist viewpoint, to all non-whites. This viewpoint i have changed over the many years that i have known him and now he says that chinese can stay in the UK, but the rest of them will have to go back to their own country. PROGRESS. Some members of ethnic minorities do not give the best impression of themselves and hence help to create the divide. The examples of which, i leave to your own experiences. I am whether i like or not a representative of the chinese community. I agree with Mr. Porkscratchings' point where he states this.

I am sorry for being so long winded, but with time and patience you can change ignorance into knowlegdge, and fear into understanding.

johnsoncbis · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 9

knowing is not enough, we must apply
wanting is not enough, we must do.

peace
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sayonara

KFC · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5

Hi ,

Interesting comment,

"Knowing is not enough, we must apply"
"wanting is not enough, we must do"

You are right of course, knowledge is power and if you do not apply the power then it is of little use, Wanting is not enough, we must do. The question is when we should that knowledge be applied and appropriate action be done?

In the fullness of time, In a Poker game, if you have a good idea of what your opponent is holding, surely it is better to wait until he has put enough money in the pot before calling his bluff and creating maximum damage to his pile of chips!

from sunj's experience

"So many times have I experienced people making assumptions referring to my partner as 'she'. I invariably correct them. Usually the reaction is "oh, sorry" and the conversation carries on normally. Other times, the reaction is different and people are embarrassed into silence."

In the above situation it is a bit difficult to define the right time to act because your knowledge at this point is extremely limited, that is to say you are unlikely to know the person well enough to measure his reaction.

I am not the person to say when is the right time to break an new idea to people as history tells of many occasions where folk who are more qualified than myself get it wrong. Do you know what happened to first guy who suggested that there was not such a thing as a god? I don't but i suspect that he met rather a painful demise
we digress....

Sunj, you mentioned that your partner is British, can i ask if that means white, if so, does that make you a minority within a minority within a minority, ie a triple whammy? A chinese homosexual in a mixed race relationship? I won't pretend to understand what that is like. Please help me to understand.

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It's Finger Licking Good

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