Problems speaking cantonese

darntart · Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 65

I'm a BBC and have only learnt a bit of Cantonese when i was young - My grandparents are English as my Dad is adopted. We did go to Chinese school but stopped after a few months. i've never been to HK or the east.

Anyway, I wanted to ask if people think it's really that important to speak Cantonese? Or is it more as something useful to have?

I have a lot of chinese friends and they always take the mickey out of my accent of my (lack) of language skills rather than help me or correct me. It makes the situation even worse as I use it less and less...

I mean unless you're going to live in Hong Kong, do you really need to be able to speak Cantonese? why does it seem so shameful not to speak it fluently? After all a lot of Welsh people can't speak one word of Welsh...

KFC · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 5

I too am in the same boat to some extent. My Chinese is not good at all. Not all the benefits of being able to speak fluent Cantonese are closed to me however, as my sister is excellent at Chinese and is able to show me what I am missing!

Though I know this will not make you feel any better, I know that I must find the time to improve my language skills.

For example, one of the things that I am shut out from is the ability to read the news from a Chinese viewpoint. My knowledge of world events was clouded to say the least. You can learn a lot more from what they don’t tell you in western news and vice-versa.

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It's Finger Licking Good

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

I think it's only a problem if you're unable to communicate with your parents etc. My Cantonese is pretty crap, but I was born here, educated here, work here and have only been to HK for the odd trip. How am I supposed to maintain my cantonese? Nowadays I listen to HK radio on the web occasionally and watch HK movies on VCD as a way of keeping familiar with the language, but it's not enough. The best way would probbaly be to live out there for a few years, immerse yourself in HK Cantonese life. Later in life I may actually have to take classes in cantonese!
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dianauni · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 15 Location: Gibraltar/Spain

Why not try learning Cantonese and/or Mandarin at the following site http://www.mycantonese.com

Good Luck!

Sara Teal · Joined: 28 Feb 2003 Posts: 1

I have just started to learn Cantonese. I am a gwailo without a chinese bone in my body so I'm finding it very difficult. I don't know any native Cantonese speakers so I tend to test out my very limited language skills on Chinese waiters,(usually when I've had a few drinks). They are very polite and complimentary and try not to laugh too loudly at me. I don't suppose I'll ever speak it as well as I want to, but oh, the joy of watching a HK movie and understanding one or two words of dialogue before the subtitle comes up!!
I am using a book and a tape which is difficult, so
if any-one knows of any Cantonese classes in the Leeds area I would be very grateful if they could let me know.
Sara

dianauni · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 15 Location: Gibraltar/Spain

Leeds University teaches Mandarin - it's where my daughter studied. You could ask in the Chinese Department for advice. Alternatively the local department of Education or failing that the waiters! Perhaps they might know of someone giving lessons. Or look up the website I suggested earlier - there is sound as well so you can practice talking. I do this at work much to the amusement of my colleagues!!

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

First of all need to clarify a few things - Mandarin is not the same as Cantonese and learning mandarin will NOT help u speak Cantonese. So peeps who want to learn Chinese will have to specific in choosing languages. Leeds university does NOT teach Cantonese - only Mandarin. Cantonese is in fact much harder to learn than Mandarin, it uses traditional characters rather than the simplified version used uses up to 9 tones to mandarin's 4-5. Due to this there is less demand for learning Canto as it so hard so there's less provision for it at uni level. I want to take exams in interpreting but finding it hard to locate places that offer Cantonese to any level never mind the degree level that i want.

Learning Canto - why. I think it is important to learn the language spoken by ur parents as when they get old u'll find it hard to help them when they need medical help - they can't communicate and u can't interpret for them. Don't rely on hospital interpreters as they are from agencies and are rubbish. My dad won't use them as they misinterpreted my dad's condition to the doctor. My dad is lucky as i am bi-lingual and can interpret for him. Many other are not so lucky as their children and grandchildren cannot speak good enough Chinese to help them.

Also never assume u will never leave the UK - my dad has been booted out of many countries back in the 60s for being Chinese. Should this happen and it could if Far Right wins a gen election, this could happen to u and u'll find u can't get jobs and do anythng in China/HK without a decent level of Chinese.

Having knowledge of Chinese allows u to read chinese newspapers and get in touch with opinions from a Chinese perspective, not watered down or distorted to a western perspective. Also it allows u to find out a lot more about Chinese culture - English doesn't have words for some of the concepts within Chinese tradition and u can't access this part of the culture unless u know the language.

Finally knowing extra language improves ur job prospects if u want a purely personal reason to learn a language.

dianauni · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 15 Location: Gibraltar/Spain

Yes, you are quite right porkscratchings that Leeds Uni do not teach Cantonese but it was only a suggestion to go to the Chinese Department and ask the lecturers there if they know of anyone giving Cantonese classes in the area. They are bound to have friends who speak Cantonese. If anyone wants to contact them I can give them the name of the Head of Department.

And to think I thought (and still do) that Mandarin was hard enough to learn with 4 tones - I would never in a million years manage 9 tones - how DO you do it?! And, as if that were not enough you write perfect English too. You have my admiration.

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

Diana, what is your view on teaching kids 2 languages as they grow up? Do you think this forces a developing child to divide their mental ability between two languages and thereofre makes them worse off at both? Is it better for a child to only learn one langauge at the start of their life? Or would you say it doesn't make any difference and kids can handle being taught and spoken to in 2 langauges?

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

Let me answer this one sp,

I don't think teaching kids 2 languages forces a developing child to divide their mental ability between two languages, making them speak both badly. I know many English pple who can only communicate in English and do it very badly, mangling spelling and grammar. So speaking only one language is no guarantee someone will speak it well.

In many parts of China pple speak many different dialects and u can't get by using just one language i.e. the one u speak in ur neighbourhood as u'll need to speak another language if u go next door for some tea. In such an environmment kids are normally taught anything up to 5 languages. My great aunt spoke 20 languages by the time she turned twenty. I'm not aware those kids growing up to be poor in any of the languages they use - in fact they become more skilled at learning more languages.

I think it is in the West that the issue of not forcing kids to be bi-lingual is prominant. Or is it western born kids are intellectually inferior to the village kids in China - they can't handle the info overload?? Or have parents over here absorb the attitude prob of communicating in foreign languages i.e. everyone speaks English so we don't need to learn another language??

Personally i am multilingual in 2 Chinese languages, English, French and Russian and a smattering of Japanese, notably the swear words! It is a fact that is harder to learn a language when u older - if u don't teach them while they are young, they often will never learn Chnese at all. I know lots of pple in this position and they bitterly regret their parents deliberately cutting them off from Chnese language and culture.

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

Hi porks. I was wondering, is the difference between these Chinese dialects as great as the difference between English and Chinese? I mean in terms of phonetics, grammar, style etc.

The thing is I'm sure many people can be raised to be multi-lingual to a certain standard but I'm talking about going beyond just 'adequate' and actually being very good at one particular language i.e. to the level of being able to be a journalist, writer or other profession that relies on intricate use of language.

I'm not sure about giving a child two workloads as their minds are developing, because to me this suggests that double the workload = half the achievment. But then again, I want my kids to learn some Cantonese as they grow up. So I'm really not sure what is best here.

Is there a danger that by forcing a child to learn two languages at the start of their lives, that they will end up being 'OK' at both, but will never be excellent at either of them, whether it's English or Chinese? We can all imagine examples of mono-lingual people who have not very good English or not very sophisticated Chinese, but when considering bringing up your own child, what do you do?

gigiwong · Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 5

I have interviewed BBCs for a prog and they hated going to chinese schools (except one who is now an actress in HK). They didn't understand why they have to go through this experience when their caucasian counterparts weren't forced to learn another language. But now as they look back, the advantages are so great. Not just being able to converse but to understand the culture & heritage. Is there anyone who is learning Mandarin so that they can work in China? Or even learning as a process of 'root' finding?

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

Sp ,

most chinese dialects are oral languages and their structure and grammar don't conform to the written characters we see in newspapers. Others even have a completely different script system for writing. Phonetics can range from being very similar to being very different, same with intonation and pronounciation of the syllables.

My great aunt does not just speak to phrase book level in the languages she speaks - it was her job to negotiate between various villages who don't speak the same language. Many pple who work as UN interpreters learned their languages at home, some up to 8 different languages using different writing systems so it is possible to be fluent in more than one language from childhood. Whatever level of language u have as a child gives u a head start when u go to lessons as an adult. Some of my family cannot speak any Canto at all - these folks are the ones that find it most hard to learn Chinese. Those who can speak some Canto find it a lot easier.

We only use 10% of our brains so how can learning another language be doubling the workload? Indian kids learn Mirpuri, Gujarati, Panjabi, Hindi and English at the same time and I don't see them failing their exams in droves. Whereas i have seen lots of English and Black kids failing exams even though they are only expected to master one language, English. So why can't Chinese just learn 2 languages - Canto and English??

If u think a child can't master one language do u give up and allow ur child to live a second rate future not being able to communicate? No? Then neither would I.

Learning a language well confers a greater awareness of language stucture and makes learning another one much easier. Just as learning maths allows u to understand more maths bases subjests like Physics. Learning 2 languages that are completely different confers major advantages to learning a whole world of languages.

The brain is a muscle - the more u exercise it, the more flexible and agile it becomes. convesely, the less u use it, the less u are able to use. Those who don't learn to speak one language decently are impaired in their learning of other things, not necessary languages. Just as those who don't learn maths are impaired in their understanding of numbers based reasoning.

Personally, I would insist my kids learn Chinese so they can talk to their grandparents, it saddens me when i have to interpret between family members. I would also want my kids to have advantages when they go into the world of work. Anyone can speak one language, few can speak more than one. Language also confers a rich cultural connection. I would want my kids to be cultural chinese, not English with a chinese face.

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

Gigiwong,

all kids hate doing something different to their peers, that's wot u do when u want to fit with the crowd. Shame they want to throw away their future in order to fit in with friends.

my parents stressed the importance of English over Chinese and refused to let me go to Sunday school, so i am self taught. Now both of them are chronically ill and need me to be their interpreter when they go into hospital. They are glad i am bi-lingual.

I want to learn more Canto and Hakka b4 trying mandarin, although can read the mandarin characters. I would like to go to China someday.

gigiwong · Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 5

My 11 year old sister is studying Mandarin, she speaks to me in English and parents in Cantonese. When I ask her how to say something in Mandarin, she doesn't know how because she only goes to Chinese class for 2 hours on Sats! No one else speaks to her in Mandarin and she does not see the importance of learning Chinese. Which is a shame. I would love to learn if I had the chance at that age, with hindsight of course. Therefore I think if you want to master a language you have to be in the right environment or certain pressure is needed for children like my sister!

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