No Chinese characters on 'Eastenders'

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

Here's an interesting discussion I found in the newsgroup uk.media.tv.misc. Someone started it off by asking why there haven't been any Chinese characters on the BBC soap opera 'Eastenders'.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?X10B21A25

snikto · Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 28

GOOD NEWS:
There has been a chinese character on Eastenders. Remember the episode focusing on the attempts of Alfie to obtain some contraception for a night of passion with Kat Slater ? Well when he looks in the cafe there was a chinese girl there !! She was sitting at the table.

BAD NEWS:
The chinese girl was an extra and had no lines

Did anyone else notice, or did they blink ???

eye_candy1870 · Joined: 08 May 2003 Posts: 86

Iam glad there are no chinese characters on EE. Look at the story lines of the indian family. Indian daughter dating muslim guy. Indian father (catholic of course) dating white woman. Indian son dating white girl (Zoe).

My Indian mate cringes when he watches this now as he thinks it sets a very bad example for Indian kids that watch this crap and think this is 'normal'.

If there were a Chinese family in EE, how do you think they would cast them? I dread to think....

Guest · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:03 pm Post subject: For sp and snikto

'Soap opera' noun [C] a television or radio series about the imaginary lives of a group of people. A soap opera is often simply called a 'soap'.

The first series of this type, on US radio, contained advertisements for companies that produced soap. (Macmillan English Dictionary)

Soaps are a reflection of the society which it is trying to portray. A short story told before Tea time, teaching and reminding people of the right and wrongs, the morales. Problems or things people may or not encounter in their lifetime. A Placebo on film, connecting people from all aspects of life, sharing a common point-of-view. How they view each another in respects to others? A temporary step out of time, a form of escapism.

East Enders is almost quite true to various aspects of British life, as the name suggest more specific to the life in the East End of London. Various British soaps do reflect a localised theme, i.e Coronation Street. I don’t think they were intended to misrepresent certain ethnic minorities? You simply can not look at it in that perspective.

There are others which don’t really do anything. The MacDonald or fast food equivalent of soaps, for example Neighbours or Home and Away. These just represent distant European settlements, largely made up of non-coloured communities, who have not yet dealt with the issues of a modern multicultural society, or are just uncomfortable with this notion?

In the context of multicultural representations, East Enders is pretty good at its job. Where as Neighbours is some how distorted, I mean where are the Aborigines? Where are the other ethnic mix which make up a proportion of Australian life? It is difficult to relate too...

Why isn’t there any Chinese role in East Enders? Maybe there isn’t enough good Actors or Actresses to hire at this moment in time?

Though it is a pretty good debate to raise, Soaps do offer a good platform, how people are perceived to be and how they are represented? Preparing your average Joe-bloggs mind-set with a common point-of-view. Informing them of the differences and the changing patterns of society.

Demonstrating their ability to understand others who indefinitely play a role in Britain, and are all too often ignored or not acknowledge for there contributions. The alternative solution is to create new types of Soap genres, which cater for a different but emerging audience, for example ‘Grease Monkey’.

Simply adding new Chinese characters in existing Soaps, without any logical storyline, would be equivalent to renovating an old Victorian building, no matter how much stainless steel or glass is added, it will look strange. Look at the only Chinese girl in Neighbours!

I can remember a Chinese family on there way back in the mid 1990s. The acting was appalling, and I presume the idea was ditched, it must have affected the ratings. Which reminds me of a visit to Barcelona back in April, the Museu National d’Art de Catalunya, displayed mainly Romanesque and Gothic Art.

There was one small painting in the Gothic Art section which caught my eye. It was the first ever portrait I had seen of a Black Slave, and there aren’t many! This painting was of a back side profile revealing a bit of his face, but not of the front. I could not see what he looked like, which defies the purpose of portrait painting.

I want to draw a comparison between this and the British Chinese Community in respect to the representations on TV/Film. I feel people are still uncomfortable with seeing an East Asian face, playing a major role on British TV/Film. I don’t know why? Lack of education or plain arrogance?

But if you were to look back at American films such as The Gooneys or Indiana Jones. We are either called Data or Short Round, typical stereotypical roles, intellectual geeks or something referring to our physical appearances.

Roles tending to be submissive, background support actors and actresses, not leading strong non-stereotypical roles, even though in the States there are plenty of good Chinese actors and actresses, communities over there are much larger.

The most famous of them, who broke the mould was Bruce Lee. Even in his early career staring in the Hornet, he wore a mask, imagine how people would had reacted if he didn’t? Jacky Chan is doing pretty well, same as Lucy Liu from Charlies Angels.

Maybe people in the West are still uncomfortable with seeing flat noses, almond shaped-eyes, or long yellow faces, and would much prefer big noses? After all Hong Kong was the last colony to be returned in 1997, up until that point, lets say Chinese people were perceived indifferently!

It is a sad irony, a country which prides itself on a liberal system, and supposedly the foremost balanced democratic system in the world, with an ethnic community dating back more than 150 years, being portrayed unrealistically, even today!

I still believe we have not moved beyond this point, until we do so, we will continued to be misrepresented and misunderstood, giving reasons to the obvious. Multi-cuturalism on a leash is not multi-cuturalism at all!

What do you think sp and snikto?

snikto · Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 28

Virtually every minority group has been on EastEnders Afro-Carribean, South Asian, Gay
There's been Scottish, Irish and Welsh (for all the countries in the UK). There've been people from Europe - East Europe, the Italian family (called DiMarcos or something)
They've been to France and other places. There was a Jewish character on - the barber, other religions I'm not sure about.
Even characters from British regions - Manchester, Newcastle.
And not one, NOT one character that has been chinese!! That's the one thing that really gets me fuming. The soap has been going for nearly 20 years and there hasn't been one chinese character.
Something's going on here and there could be many reasons - which might be the ones you mentioned Tay. The West is probably still uncomfortable with seeing those "Far Eastern faces". I also think that there is still a little bit of racism there as well. Not totally the reason, but one of the reasons.

Guest · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:23 pm Post subject: Context

snikto, many people will feel the same too...

I don’t know the exact details of who or what types of people has been portrayed or written into the script over the past 20 years, but it is something many people tend to have noticed recently on TV.

I don’t regard this as an element of discrimination, though I would not rule out the possibilities(?). There are already Asian and Black actors/actresses staring, that is why. It has more to do with a lack of knowledge and understanding of diverse cultures, not being able to portray types of people realistically. Though it is true, people are still uncomfortable with seeing an East Asian face on British TV. For example, the current Walkers Prawn Crackers Crisp ad with Tara (she looks kind of oriental?), mimicking either Cantonese or possibly Mandarin singing? Not quite sure because its pretty terrible.

Why could it not have been a Chinese actress singing beautiful Beijing Opera or doing something which has a purposeful meaning to enhancing the product? I am a Designer and familiar with ‘Imagery’ and ‘Representation’, yeh things certainly don’t add up! At least there are no longer white faces covered in black shoe polish, pretending to be African. But you do get people mimicking the Chinese today, not just TV, Theatre too, reminiscent of the Golliwog era.

It is certainly an issue, but there are currently many people who are helping to raise the profile of the British Chinese Community, and those who identify themselves with the community. David K.S. Tse for example, who is involved with the play “Lear’s Daughter”, recently covered by Dimsum.

The thing with the British Chinese issues in relation to the wider community is a combination of Social-Political motives. It has more to do with the relationship between mainland China and the UK. The attitudes towards us is a direct reflection of the communication and relationship between both nations.

Certainly in todays multicultural society there needs to be changes made if there is to be a realistic portrayal of contemporary life in Britain. There are going to be many hurdles to overcome for changes to take place. Remember the Chinese community here is tiny, and that may be the very reason for the low numbers of actresses and actors available, but that does not mean there are no good ones out there to hire!

Back in the 70s, Irish immigrants were more or less treated in a similar fashion to what the BCC is feeling today. Not just TV related issues, but job vacancies, where they would be directly turned down on this basis. It is very important to keep up the pressure and raise issues which you feel directly affects the BCC, only then would there be true equality in a Post Imperialist Island State.

The more people from the BCC start to question and share them in the discussion forum, the more familiar the voice becomes. If people sit back leave things as they are especially in remote places outside of London. It will just get worse, look at youth related crimes for example, its ridiculous! I am sure there are many many other issues people would like to share?

Chinese communities in the US, Canada, and many other places, apart from Europe, have made huge hurdles to be heard and not simply ignored. Europe is really the last region to question the Chinese Diaspora.

Something else I tend to have noticed, Chinese woman faces are more likely to be accepted than a Chinese male, not sure why? Maybe its the society which finds a Far East Asian male face threatening in a psychological context?

snikto does that help?

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

I'm gonna be a pain and disagree -----

I personally don\t care if there are Chinese faces on East Enders. I don't want pple sticking Chinese characters here there and everywhere just to be politically correct, or sticking in crap actors just 'cause they happen to be Chinese.

Havng Chinese on TV is like having a sex scene on TV - it should only be on the screen if it is relevant to the plot/story or a chinese actor/actress is suited to play the character in question.

Guest · Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:45 pm Post subject:

I understand Chinese characters should not be written into the script, and only relevant to the plot and not just for political correctness. I have already mentioned this.

I was discussing with snikto about the mis-representions and how people are still uncomfortable with seeing an East Asian face on British TV, especially if they are British! After all East Enders is a fictional story, reflecting contemporary life in the East End of London, and pretty good at it too. Certainly there are many families from an East Asian background, that do play a part in Britain, there needs to be some form of acknowledgement.

For example when there is a scene where a Chinese person or anything related to the word ‘Chinese’ is used, they are either stereotyped or a person who is obviously not Chinese, but has black hair, sharp face, and almond shape eyes, oriental looking, is used. Why can it not be a Chinese actor/actress?

For example, the current Walkers Prawn Crackers Crisp ad with Tara (she looks kind of oriental?), mimicking either Cantonese or possibly Mandarin singing? Not quite sure because its pretty terrible.

It is about raising the profile of the British Chinese Community, and informing the wider community at the same time. Balancing out the misinformed, distorted perceptions of ‘YOU’, because if people don’t question the very reason for advertising an ad with Car Insurance and Kung Fu as an example.

Then this just give people the reason to react and behave unrealistically to you and treat it as a form of normal behaviour. Creating a distorted image of a tiny community. For example if you are fat and the image people paint of you is thin.

Remember ‘Slavery’ wasn't abandoned for political purposes, but for economical reasons, it was no longer sustainable and abandoned, ONLY then the African Americans were set free. Historically Western societies have a habit of of exploiting things for commercial motives and not for moral purposes.

m_wong · Joined: 27 Oct 2003 Posts: 1

Hi, this is the first time I've used Dimsum. I actually read about it in an article in a Sunday paper. Can't remember if it was The Independent now...

I was reading all the postings...and I can't remember who said something about the lack of Chinese actors but there's something about acting career not being perceived as a 'proper job'. I'm a BBC and my parents came here about 30 years ago.

To them a good education and then a 'gwaito' job was the best thing for me. A professional job which meant university. Is it entirely possible that there aren't many Chinese actors because it's not seen as 'respectable' to be an actor?

I do remember seeing a male Chinese actor in a very good BBC drama a while ago. He played a reporter for a big paper, the role wasn't big but still...I hate to to admit it but there is almost a novelty factor with seeing a Chinese actor on British television. Anyway back to the drama...can't remember what it was called.

It might just be my family's views but acting isn't looked upon as a good job. Funnily enough my family have no qualms with actors and actresses in China and HK, but it's not something that I should do according to them. I'd love to know what other people think.

snikto · Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 28

Why is it only allowed that chinese are included "if it's relevant"????

If that's the case then the South Asians in Coronation St have a problem then. And why not chinese in the Street ??? After all it is supposed to be set in the area of Manchester.

I agree if the actors are poor then the inclusion of chinese actors doesn't help but you've gotta start somewhere. The characters of Gita and Sanjay got criticism from Indians, as well as the new 'Asian' family. But things have improved greatly for British South Asians from 'Curry and Chips' to Second Generation and East is East.
Whereas the chinese are still lumbered with Kung Fu, Hong Kong Phooey, Fu Manchu, Charlie Chan, Monkey, need I go on ???? Anything would be better than that.

I thought that the chinese in Neighbours was a good thing. Yes, the chinese family was a bit ropey and the chinese girl seemed to come out of thin air, but the representation was good. (Earlier point: Tay have you heard of converted churches ??). I saw those characters then thought of British TV - nothing !!!

If you have chinese characters then if they're good, then they'll stay. If they're lacking then they will be booted off, either by the scriptwriter's hand or by the viewers opinion. Surely there are chinese in the East End of London ???

If Eastenders can resurrect Dirty Den back from the dead, then they can surely include a chinese character.

Guest · Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:21 am Post subject:

snikto you have made a pretty good point, you have to start somewhere, if the acting is bad then for sure this will affect the overall series, but it is about encouraging positive steps to break down the stereotype that certain films have helped conjure up.

No I have not heard of converted churches...? But yeh Chinese in British TV is practically invisible.

Kung Fu, Hong Hong Phooey, Fu Manchu, Charlie Chan, and Monkey are good and obvious examples. Yes it is about moving on from this and creating the equivalent to ‘East is East’ or ‘Second Generation’, though for the British Chinese Community it is the 7th and 8th Generation.

It is still important to write new characters into a series which makes sense and have some kind of meaning, else it will look strange and make the story too complicated. It is important to put things into context, and not just for political correctness.

Things have improved for the South Asians because they have worked together as a community to make things work positively, where as in the British Chinese Community there is still very little progress to make things happen.

The Chinese community in the UK is too dispersed, and that is partly the reason for the lack of progress and communication. The Dimsum Discussion Forum is the ideal place to talk about new ideas and get the community involved. It is just the beginning, but I am pretty sure that there are plenty of people who would want to improve things.

m_wong it is not about creating new qualms, but educating and informing people of the changing patterns of daily life. Though you did make a good point where certain families don’t see acting as a respectable job.

It is about creating new culture...

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

True dat slavery was abolished for economic reasons - it is for the same reason dat Chinese pple don't feature on East Enders - there's no demand for this from the show's audience who are mainly white. And let's face it - it is this audience dat provide East Ender's bread and butter. To change this we need Chinese pple watching East Enders in large numbers and only then can we ask for Chinese actors to appear.

The 2nd reason is dat the majority of writers in films and shows happen to be white and do not understand enough of Chinese culture to write for Chinese characters. So they stick to wot they know - writing for white characters and white audiences. To change this we need Chinese families to encourage their children to go into the acting and script writing profession - like the asian community do. This is why there are plenty of asian actors and writers for the acting profession.

The 3rd reason is dat we do not have decent Chinese actors in the UK - the talent isn't there so why should any member of the Chinese community give support to poor performers who want to be successful by milking the PC brigade, rather than by talent? I know of a East Asian comedienne who thinks it is funny to denigrade Chinese culture for the amusement of whites. Result - I'd rather throw my money at Jack Dee.

My argument of relevancy still stands - flooding TV and films with crap Chinese actors does not serve the audience - who'd vote with their remote control leading to LESS Chinese pple getting on TV. It does not serve the Chinese who want to get by on their talent, not via some ethnic quota. It does not serve the Chinese community who does not need to be represented by rubbish.

The Chinese community needs to build the talent in order to storm the gates of TV, not demand broadcasters open the gates to any second rate performer on grounds of race.

snikto · Joined: 22 Aug 2003 Posts: 28

It sounds like you don't want any chinese on Eastenders at all ??

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

Guest · Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:16 pm Post subject:

porkscratchings, it sounds like you are not very proud or happy with being what you are?

What is your point of continuing to contribute to the existing ‘Negative’ attitude towards the British-Chinese Community?

How would you feel if an English man and another English man was debating irrational about English identity in the 21st century?

Do you think much can be achieved by writing or doing what you do?

Simply, bad actors would not past the audition stage, regardless of their background. TV and film is about exposing and exploring ideas and stories and the actors help communicate this with the audience, with their acting abilities.

It is about encouraging and raising the profile of the community and encouraging people to seek their potential talent and not discourage. Your attitude is not very encouraging!

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