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malnoh
Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 42
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 Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Tay wrote: | This pattern virtually existed in every single China Town in the world(?).
To make another point, the British Chinese community are in their 5th & 6th generation, not the 2nd & 3rd generation as previously assumed. It does not take much to add up the maths.
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I have to make notes of these two points you made. The Chinatowns in the UK, even the Manchester one the largest in Europe, do not have a 'live in' Chinese community, they live elsewhere. Therefore, the Chinatown in the UK become more of a gathering point rather than an enclave situ.
The Chinese immigrated to the UK in any kind of sizeable numbers at the end of the 1950's when a loophole in the Commonwealth Immigration Act (?). These are what is called the 'first generation' even though technically they are not as there were Chinese living/visiting in the UK since the late 1700's. These early Chinese were mostly sailors and labourers, most would return home when they earned enough money, married local women and/or have a business interest (eg. the Chinese laundry of the early 1900's). It was probably only since the mid 1960's when the 'first generation' Chinese started bringing their wives and families into the UK.
I have not previously met any family generations of British Chinese with a longer history of more than three generations, all born and bred in the UK since their first immigrant parentage, so I could not be sure of the forth/fifth claim. However, it is possible that they do exist but only in very small numbers I would presume. Also, they may not be totally ethnic Chinese in the sense that they may have married non-Chinese people.
In terms of British Chinese research, the focal point is on identity of 'second generation' British Chinese. Again the terms are incorrect but the research do state the sample they are studying clearly in the reports. Many active researchers in this British Chinese topic, with the most famous being David Parker who used to be in Birmingham Uni. There is also some study centres in other uni's as well, I think Liverpool has one of the bigger ones. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I have to make notes of these two points you made. The Chinatowns in the UK, even the Manchester one the largest in Europe, do not have a 'live in' Chinese community, they live elsewhere. Therefore, the Chinatown in the UK become more of a gathering point rather than an enclave situ. |
I was commenting on how China Town came about, the history. I did not say Europe has a 'live in' policy, it is a bit different to the 1950s and the outcome of today?
www.britishbornchinese.org.uk/pages/art15.html
David Parker
Parker identifies six different forms of identity amongst young Chinese in Britain, ranging from those who regard themselves strongly as British, through several levels of mixed identity, to those who drew strength and pride from being definitely Chinese. While those in the middle of the range may be the most confused, it is perhaps those at the two ends of the spectrum who are in the greatest danger from the kind of catastrophic disillusionment described above. Parker holds out the hope of a developing, though still amorphous British Chinese identity. The difficulty of defining such a thing is illustrated by articles which seem to assume it applies to any young, middle-class Chinese who does not work in catering11,12. Parker makes it clear that it is far more complicated than that.
This is quite interesting where Parker highlights 6 graded identities amongst the British Chinese. It answers some of the subjects and threads raised in this forum with certain users.
The term 'Discrimination' has been a widely written and thoroughly researched subject, but why is it there still so many misinformed people, when it comes to Cultural Diversity, especially when people are more than aware of these issues today?
It is all too good researching, documenting, and writing about the subject 'Identity & The Chinese in Britain', but when is appropriate to apply those in depth studies, to better a community which has largely been excluded and still remains invisible in the UK today? |
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malnoh
Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Tay wrote: | 1. I was commenting on how China Town came about, the history. I did not say Europe has a 'live in' policy, it is a bit different to the 1950s and the outcome of today?
2. This is quite interesting where Parker highlights 6 graded identities amongst the British Chinese. It answers some of the subjects and threads raised in this forum with certain users.
3. The term 'Discrimination' has been a widely written and thoroughly researched subject, but why is it there still so many misinformed people, when it comes to Cultural Diversity, especially when people are more than aware of these issues today?
4. It is all too good researching, documenting, and writing about the subject 'Identity & The Chinese in Britain', but when is appropriate to apply those in depth studies, to better a community which has largely been excluded and still remains invisible in the UK today? |
1. I know, I was just further stating that the Chinatowns of the UK is different than those in the US. The oldest Chinatown in Europe, I believe, is the one in Liverpool. fyi
2. I would recommend Parker as essential reading for anyone studying British Chinese. Actually, his 'identities' evolved from strategies avoiding/accepting discrimination and racism.
3. We all have our preferences but some have very very very strong preferences... looking at some of the other posts would confirm this.
4. The research has only just started more need to be done. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| malnoh wrote: |
1. I know, I was just further stating that the Chinatowns of the UK is different than those in the US. The oldest Chinatown in Europe, I believe, is the one in Liverpool. fyi
2. I would recommend Parker as essential reading for anyone studying British Chinese. Actually, his 'identities' evolved from strategies avoiding/accepting discrimination and racism.
3. We all have our preferences but some have very very very strong preferences... looking at some of the other posts would confirm this.
4. The research has only just started more need to be done. |
1. I guess you are still avoiding the point?
2. Parker sheds some light on the make-up of the British-Chinese, offers a different angle to the Chinese in the UK, but I am not sure about avoiding/accepting discrimination and racism?
3. Yes it is true some people have some very strong preferences, but I certainly don't.
4. More bureaucracy. |
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pwoi
Joined: 21 Mar 2004
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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What a fascinating thread. I've always referred to my husband as "Oriental" because that's how he refers to himself. The rest of his family refer to themselves as Oriental or Chinese. I think the problem with calling people Asian is that it's confusing for some - if I tell a friend that I have an Asian husband they don't really have any way of knowing that I mean Chinese, because I could mean Indian instead! (Although I've actually never had to tell a friend that I have an Asian/Oriental/Chinese/Eurasian husband, because oddly, it's actually never, ever been an issue for either of us or anyone that we know. If ever I describe my husband I tell people that he's "lovely".)
I tend to try and avoid using any kind of race label at all though. I've been very fortunate in that I've very rarely needed to. |
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malnoh
Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Tay wrote: |
1. I guess you are still avoiding the point?
2. Parker sheds some light on the make-up of the British-Chinese, offers a different angle to the Chinese in the UK, but I am not sure about avoiding/accepting discrimination and racism?
3. Yes it is true some people have some very strong preferences, but I certainly don't.
4. More bureaucracy. |
I'll answer these on the reverse-
4. Yup! From research to policy would take a lot of time... not something people would go into without 'prove'.
3. I enjoy talking to people who could see further than the trees and you are one of them! Cheers!
2. Parker's work was good but as you may have implied other angles need to be addressed. My suggestion would be the immigration flow of Chinese into Britain and thier settlements over the years.
1. I'm not sure about this one. But if you think that I am avoiding the point that Chinatown in the UK played a crucial role in the development of British-Chinese identity then I will clarify my point.
Chinatown play a only minor role in the development of British Chinese identify in the fact that the Chinatown acts only as a place of meeting and occupation. British Chinese have developed a different form of identity from being isolated and away from their own populus. British (born) Chinese children especially have rarely had any other Chinese in the schools they attended other than their brothers and sisters, perhaps. This formed identity issues that would cause variance from adolensence development theory and normal identity development theories (which Parker used discriomination and racism to explain). I wouldn't play down any further aspects of the development of British Chinese identity as they would all come into perspective one way or another. I am only say saying that the 'Chinatown effect' is only part, and may even be minimal, of the whole process. |
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sp
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 218
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Tay wrote: | | The term East Asian clearly defines the Chinese community in Britain. It is a Geographical Term and nothing really to do with being excluded. If it was called the 'East Asian Network', mentally people will start to imagine Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or Vietnamese people. |
I think it would be okay if Chinese Asian people were called East Asian as long as Indian subcontinent Asian people were called South Asian.
The problem, for me, is the mis-use and appropraition of the word 'Asian' in a way that excludes us.
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| sp wrote: | I think it would be okay if Chinese Asian people were called East Asian as long as Indian subcontinent Asian people were called South Asian.
The problem, for me, is the mis-use and appropraition of the word 'Asian' in a way that excludes us. |
The misuse of the term 'Asian' in a way that excludes us, has more to do with basic geography lessons, and I feel it is not really an issue or anything offensive at all.
I honestly feel some people are over-sensitive at a time when the overall BRITISH IDENTITY is going through a change, socially and culturally. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| malnoh wrote: | | 3. I enjoy talking to people who could see further than the trees and you are one of them! Cheers! |
We need more people like you who have a positive attitude, and help shed new light towards understanding the Contemporary British Identity issue. |
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eye_candy1870
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| indians/pakistanis get the same crap in America as we do in england. They get to use the 'asian' tag in UK and we get to use this everywhere else in the world. I think thats pretty fair dont u? |
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sp
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 218
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| Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Asian american magazines usually contain some content that relates to South Asia. It is only a small proportion of the content but this reflects the smaller population. At least they acknowledge that Indian people are a part of Asia and don't exclude them.
The BBC Asian Network and other so-called 'asian' media outlets don't even acknowledge our existance.
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GweiLo
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:11 am Post subject: |
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Tay,
I agree it is about "Geography" and not intended as offensive. I may have misunderstood sp, but I didn't think he point was really about him being offended, although he will correct me if I am wrongf.
To be fair sp does have a point about just who counts as "asian" and in what circumstances. I take it we all agree that labels of any sort aren't desirable, we are all individuals after all, but they are a practical neccesity.
So when the BBC say, allocates its budget for Asian programming and they habitually equate Asian with South Asians the budget gets spent making programming for them. The Chinese get left out.
I don't doubt we could all come up with other examples of where being excluded, or more likely just forgotten, when "Asian" issues come up disadvantages the Chinese.
From that point of view it does matter surely? |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| GweiLo wrote: | So when the BBC say, allocates its budget for Asian programming and they habitually equate Asian with South Asians the budget gets spent making programming for them. The Chinese get left out.
I don't doubt we could all come up with other examples of where being excluded, or more likely just forgotten, when "Asian" issues come up disadvantages the Chinese.
From that point of view it does matter surely? |
Yes from that point of view it does matter.
But there simply is not enough UK Chinese talent to make up the numbers, to keep a TV series going for a whole 6 months schedule, then the whole project becomes pointless. If there are no Chinese involved in the decision making, I would presume the programme’s content will tend to focus on Asians.
Now is the perfect time to encourage more and more UK Chinese talent, emerging Writers, Actors, Directors, Comedians etc, to go on stage and demonstrate themselves. |
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GweiLo
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Tay,
well the debate about Chinese talent is a different one. You obviously got the point I was making though. I was just using Auntie Beebs budgets as an example really. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Gweilo,
The Chinese talent debate is another issue same as the Opium Trade, or do you not feel qualified to discuss this?
Believe me, I am aware of your comments. |
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