Chinese voice

crab · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 34

I know that not everyone has to be an activist, there does seem to be a great deal of fragmentation in the BBC community. BBC's seem to have a very difficult time exciting and organizing their community to do anything constructive.

I have often found following points frustrating:

BBC's who don't care about British Chinese issues.

BBC's who think that there are no issues and live in denial. In conjunction, they think that BBC's who care are just a bunch of whiney complainers.

BBC's who criticize other BBC's who are trying to do something.

BBC's who pander to white/dominant cultures.

So what I want to know is, how can we get other people to take an interest in their community and not just think about themselves?

Preaching does not work...any creative ideas?

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

Hi crab, welcome to the board.

Is there one particualr campaign or incident that you have in mind, or is it just a general observation about Chinese people?

crab · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 34

This is a general observation, something that was thought to be a symptom of the first generation, but seems apply to the BBC's. You can see it in most aspects of BBC interation, from the message boards , through to politics in Chinatown.

It seems that BBC's don't really care about the community as a whole: as long as they are alright, there is not need to stir up trouble, or to lift a finger to help anyone else.

Even worse are those that use the guise of community action to imrpove their status.

How can we encourage our community?

porkscratchings · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 112 Location: BirmingHAM

I think the fragmentation of the BBC community is in part caused by assimilation into mainstream society and pple don't want to rock the boat by getting involved in community issues. Others don't want to know unless they get some benefit out of it.

Language also has a part to play as the majority of BBC cannot speak Canto/Hakka, nevermind read or write in the language - this cuts them off from community issues and learning about their cultural roots. Thier chldren will know even less, so by each generation the BBCs become more culturally western and less Chinese even as they might still look Chinese. This is already happening in America where there are plenty of ABCs who act like white Americans in everyway.

Possible solutions could be:

1- have good language schools to ensure more Chinese know their language and can know their culture.

2- have chinese based orgs that help pple find jobs etc. so that pple can see a personal benefit in participating in their community

3- have places/events where groups of Chinese can meet up and get to know one another. We have youth orgs for youths but wot about everybody else?

4- have a bilingual newspaper so all chinese can know about current affairs at home and abroad from a Chinese perspective. Also this journal can cover issues that directly affect the BBC community.

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

I think I can see where you're coming from crab. I agree that things would be simpler if the whole community acted together but the thing is, amongst Chinese people there is actually a lot of diversity in opinions and political views. Our community contains everything from devil-may-care capitalists to Communist party supporters, from church-going Christians to all-night party animals. We can't expect everyone to be in agreement all the time. It's a diverse community and we don't all think in the same way.

If a cause is strong enough, I'm sure people will rally round it, but otherwise, people who agree with a cause should join it whilst those who do not should stay out. This means campaign organisers should probably not claim that the *whole* Chinese community is acting in unison, if that is not really the case. Sometimes I get the impression the people organsing these campaigns think we're sheep that can be herded around as part of their plans. We're not like that, are we?

crab · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 34

I agree that our Chinese community is very diverse, but that is not to say that we can have common goals to benefit the good of the community.

As porkscrtachings rightly points put, there are several things such as education etc that can benefit the chinese community, but it is up to us to come together to initiate these projects.

it seems that many projects start off with good intentions, but fizzle out due to lack of people ...

Roamer · Joined: 18 Mar 2003 Posts: 8 Location: Somewhere in London

I know that not everyone has to be an activist, there does seem to be a great deal of fragmentation in the BBC community. BBC's seem to have a very difficult time exciting and organizing their community to do anything constructive.

'I have often found following points frustrating:

BBC's who don't care about British Chinese issues.

BBC's who think that there are no issues and live in denial. In conjunction, they think that BBC's who care are just a bunch of whiney complainers.

BBC's who criticize other BBC's who are trying to do something.

BBC's who pander to white/dominant cultures.

So what I want to know is, how can we get other people to take an interest in their community and not just think about themselves? '
-----
Unsure which category you find yourself in but I am just trying to make a living like most of us over here. I expect that I'd fit alongside no 2. I think that there are only british chinese issues if you make them issues. I've lived in HK for a few years and the UK and people are essentially the same underneath. As for BBCs 'pandering' that's to be expected as the dominant culture is western, you wouldn't expect a gweilo to speak cantonese, eat with chopsticks and drink chinese tea. As a 'whiney complainer' you can tell me as I haven't a clue:

1. What are the british chinese issues??
2. What are you personally going to do about it??

Your parents brought you over here to make a better life and so deal with it; why whine...

blxliao · Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Posts: 4

I would have to agree with the previous reply. I am not aware that there are any issues that need to be dealt with. The Chinese in Britain have generally been held in high regard because they have assimilated without fuss.

As for pandering to the 'dominant culture', perhaps the fact that you have posed the question shows that you have adopted the western culture of whining.

It is in the interests of the Chinese community that we get on with our lives. Observe the problems other racial groups experience. I have family in Sydney (Australia). The Chinese community over there once lived in harmony with their white counterparts. They and their culture were respected and the Australians even went as far as recognising various festivals etc. However, this was not enough for the vociferous few, who have succeeded in alienating very people who have given them space in their own country. It has upset the previous generation of Chinese who have seen their hard work thrown away by careless words.

You have a choice. If you don't like the way you are treated here, move back to the country of your origin.

My choice is that I have a vested interest in the Chinese community at large. I don't look for trouble where there isn't any!

crab · Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 34

i don't beleive that taking an interest in our community is'looking for trouble' or whining as you put it. A number of really positive things have come out of a young community - community organisations / websites such as these / action against mainstream racism etc. these are all things that are fundamental to Chinese people in the UK.

I personally do not have any links with the Chinese catering industry, but if I see that papers are reporting things about Chinese food in a rascist manner, i beleve that this reflects on our community as a whole. We have all heard about the recent soy sauce scares / stolen cats , dogs and pigeons ending up in Chinese restuarants etc...

What i want to know is how we can encourage positive action in a second generation to build a stronger community with a strong voice that doesn't have to 'assimilate' in order to be acceptable to the wider community.

You asked what i what personally going to do about it, well, i have done quite a lot about it, getting involved in political issues, organisations against racism and harassment towards Chinese, working with friendship societies etc...

You say that there are no issues, and I think that that is a real shame - if you scrape the surface, you will see that there are a lot of injustices towards the Chinese community - or just areas that we could work together on in order to create a stronger community for us all.

Areas of health, mental health, women and older people are just a few things that need imput particularly from those that know abou the community and culture...

Roamer · Joined: 18 Mar 2003 Posts: 8 Location: Somewhere in London

blxliao · Joined: 13 Mar 2003 Posts: 4

Hear Hear!

Parson'sPleasure · Joined: 22 Mar 2003 Posts: 3

I am encouraged to see that there are healthy debates on the Chinese 'community'.

It seems to me that the UK Chinese community, as compared to other diaspera Chinese communities, (such as the New York, San Fran, Malaysia, Indonesia) our UK communities are still very young. So it does not seem suprising to me that our "British Chinese" identity is not as established as some of our overseas counterparts.

When we compare ourselves to the black and Asian communities, in terms of Black British cultural identity, unity, and issue raising, we the Chinese seemed to have some way to go. Perhaps this is not surprising that social identity is so well establsihed in black and Asian communities, when theybenefits from living geographically close to other members of their communities. Young Asian and Black people have a lot more opportunities to socialise and in time, develop a collective identity. Whereas the Chinese are living far apart from each other, and the only time we see another Chinese person is often the weekly trip to Loon Fung. (when was the last time you had a conversation with another Chinese person other than your family?) We do not have the benefits of living in a physically close community, which often gives a sense of confidence and strength to tackle these issues. An (individual racist events would not just be a personal issue but shared burden of the community. Chinese people are therefore more valuable to racism than other ethnic communities. From my own experience, being isolated and lacking in support and guidence, meant that I dealt with racist incidence by blaming myself for not being street-wise enough, and started to internalise racist stereotypical views of ourselves. When I was a kid, I only go to see a few Chinese people, and adults were always watching Hong Kong videos, bet on horse (rarely enough for 4 Chinese people around to play Marjong!), working for a living at the takeaway. The only time I saw other Chinese kids, ( when I was not stuck on weekends working at the shop), was at Chinese school or (I was lucky...I suppose) in Chinese youth club. I certainly had a poor (self) image of being Chinese. CHINESE CULTURE = cooking, gambling, HK videos, CantonPop (aayyyaaa!!!), hardworking, generally a very boring bunch. Despite our challenges and conditions, I think us BBC's are doing well, and it is great to be having discussion with each other at all. In our excitment and frustrations, it's easy to think we could do more, now and see results in 24 hours. Having those thoughts for many years have made me a little more greyer and I have seen real changes. Not sea shift, but significant gains. So I tend to feel that we shall continue the good work but also give ourselves some time.
_________________
Everything In Life Can Be Fun.

Roamer · Joined: 18 Mar 2003 Posts: 8 Location: Somewhere in London

there's an inherent dilemma of retaining chinese 'culture'. However once you arrive to an 'adopted' land over time you will need to adapt to the dominant culture. As time goes by as can be seen by the ABCs (Oz/american), CBCs there appears little difference with the third/fourth gen to the locals. Most of the BBCs are first gen whose parents came over and so we still have 'traditional' values instilled into us. However, over time you will see that the same changes affecting the BBCs. The same happens to the expat kids in HK who are born there and when they return to the UK feel 'out of place'. As for an identity there a too few BBCs in the UK to build such a community also many of us are too busy making money to think about 'chineseness'....

tenpence · Joined: 24 Feb 2003 Posts: 174

I was surprised to read some of the comments on this thread!

I think that future generations of BBC's will change their identity and culture in the UK, however, it may not mean that they become more integrated and eventually invisible in the dominant culture.

If you look at the US, people may be later generations but they still retain a Asian american identity - just look at sites such as AsianAvenue that are products of this. ABC have thier own issues that will come to affect the BBC's as genrations grow...

I also agree that issues such as health etc are significant to everyone, whereever they are, irrespective of race. However, there specific problems that affect the chinese community over here, particularly language, and also in the way our Chinese culture deals with these problems. These are issues that immediately affect our community and, will be less evident as our generations .

As you say Roamer,

Judge Mental · Joined: 07 May 2003 Posts: 3

Head down - do as you're told - assimilate - earn money - ignore your rights and uniqueness - Westernization is inevitable. This is the kind of attitude expressed by some on this message thread. It seems like a very Chinese attitude to me.

But here's a thought. Western society values individuality, and people who speak their minds (even if they might be wrong sometimes). It is based on confrontation and asserting what is your right.

How then can our compliance help us fit in here? Fact is, assimilation neither helps us fit in nor gain us any respect from the majority community. It just makes us invisible and ignorable.

If that's the kind of British Chinese community you want, then why don't YOU go back to China where you can have all the 'peace' and obedience you want.

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