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Chineseperson
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: Chinese Religion and Philosophy |
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Compared with other Asian minorities in Britain, such as Muslims and Hindus, we Chinese might have a disadvantage, in that generally speaking we are not as in touch with the higher (and in a sense more abstract) elements of our cultural heritage, namely religion and philosophy. We do not have as much spiritual support from our culture as the Hindus and Muslims do. Thus when Chinese people face racism for example we may not have as much to fall back on as the other Asian groups. Our souls are not as firm. Our Chinese identity is far less defined by religious and philosophical factors compared with the Muslims and the Hindus. I consider this to be sad since China is one of the world's oldest literate civilisations and our religion and philosophy have a diversity and depth that is certainly no less than that of Islam or Hinduism. Therefore in this post I would like to describe some basic concepts and ideas in Traditional Chinese Religion.
One of the unfortunate things that happened to China during the great turmoils of the 19th and 20th centuries is that many aspects of HIGH Chinese culture (i.e. religion and philosophy) declined, so nowadays when people think of traditional Chinese culture they usually think about the "lower" aspects, e.g. Chinese food, dragon dance etc. (Indeed the name of this forum itself kind of testifies this - would a British Muslim website call itself "kebab"?) This is unfortunate because traditional Chinese culture contains a religious element that is just as deep as the religion and theology of the other great ancient civilisations, yet many people are simply not aware of it. The good thing is that in recent years the higher aspects of traditional Chinese culture are gradually reviving (at least in mainland China this is so). In this post I will try to talk about the more "higher", "official", more abstract and general elements of Traditional Chinese Religion, instead of folk practices and beliefs. (Which may be very diverse)
Traditional Chinese Religion (TCR) believes in One Supreme God, the Creator of all things. The Chinese God is not represented by idols or images. Both Confucianism and Daoism believe in this but they focus on different aspects. In ancient China religions are usually inclusive instead of mutually exclusive. Traditionally Chinese people believed in a symbiotic combination of three religions, Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism. Based on personal factors one might focus on one religion more than the others but it is perfectly normal and indeed very common for one to believe in all three of them. During certain time periods in ancient Chinese history and certain regions of China, there are also a significant minority of Christians and Muslims. (Nestorian Christianity reached China in the year 635 AD and the Chinese developed their own theology based on Chinese philosophy) In this post I will focus on the two native Chinese religions, Confucianism and Daoism.
In general there are five Chinese terms for the Supreme God, and each term emphasises a particular quality of God:
Tian - literally this means Heaven. In English it is usually translated as Heaven, God or God of Heaven. The term Tian emphasises the transcendant character of God. The way in which Heaven transcends earth is an analogy of how the Creator transcends the created.
Shangdi - this is the most literal name for God in Chinese, literally it means Lord On High. This term emphasises the authority of God. The ancient Chinese believe that God or Shangdi is the ultimate source of ethics and political authority. Ancient Chinese emperors ruled with a Mandate of Heaven, that is, with God's approval. The ultimate political authority lies not with the emperor but with God, and if the emperor fails in his duties then he loses the Mandate of Heaven and it becomes ethically justifiable to rebel against him and remove him from the throne.
The ideology of the Mandate of Heaven is linked to an ancient democratic principle of the Chinese people. As the ancient Chinese philosopher Mencius (4th century BC) says: "Heaven sees through the eyes of the people. Heaven hears through the ears of the people." The emperor loses the Mandate of Heaven when he loses the peoples' approval.
Dao - literally this word means the Way. This term emphasises the immanent aspect of God, that God is present everywhere and in all of our activities. It sees God as a dynamic Creative Force that permeates and dwells within all creation. There is also an element of mysticism in this term. As the ancient Chinese philosopher Laozi (6th century BC) says: "The dao that can be named is not the Eternal Dao." The Dao is ultimately unknowable. Anything we think we know about God is only a model, and we cannot intrinsically place God within our own intellectual boundaries. The term Dao also focuses on the practical aspect of religion. The original meaning of the word Dao is a way or a path that one travels on, it implies ACTION. Religion is not just something one ponders about, it has an important practical element too.
Shen - literally this word means Spirit. Actually this word can be used to describe other spirits (even the human spirit) so when one is explicitly referring to the Supreme God the compound word Taiyi Shen (literally "Spirit/God of the Supreme Oneness") is used. The term Shen emphasises the spiritual nature of God, and that God's power and wisdom is ultimately beyond human understanding. (There is also another compound term for the Chinese Supreme God, combining the terms Shangdi and Shen: Shangdi Taiyi Shen - literally "The Lord On High, God of the Supreme Oneness")
Zaowu or Zaowuzhu - literally this means the Creator or the Maker of All Things. This emphasises the fact that God is the Creator.
A few other points:
1. Chinese people also believe in the existence of other spirits, most notably the spirits of ancestors and the spirits of nature. However, these are seen as ministers of the Supreme God Shangdi and ultimately are under His control.
2. Unlike in Hinduism, traditional Chinese religion is not pantheistic. We do not believe that God is completely identical to His creation. (The idea that "God is everything and everything is God") Theologically speaking the best term to describe the idea of God in traditional Chinese religion would be PANENTHEISM, as there are many similarities between the concept of Dao in ancient Chinese philosophy and the concept of Logos in ancient Hellenistic philosophy (also in the New Testament - "In the beginning was the Logos. The Logos was with God. The Logos was God"). According to panentheism, God dwells and is present in all created things, but is not intrinsically equivalent to them. There is a fundamental distinction between the Creator and the Created.
3. Strictly speaking Confucianism and Daoism, plus certain other elements in traditional Chinese philosophy, should be considered as ONE religion, not two. Historically they did emerge from the same roots. Confucianism and Daoism are often considered to represent the ACTIVE and PASSIVE sides of Traditional Chinese Religion respectively. Confucianism deals with things like politics, social ethics, philosophy, academic issues, government and statecraft. Daoism deals with things like private individual spiritual cultivation, spiritual martial arts (e.g. Taiji or Tai Chi), meditation, traditional Chinese medicine and mysticism. They are complementary aspects of the same underlying religion. Confucians are more likely to use the terms Tian and Shangdi when they refer to God, and Daoists like the use the terms Dao and Taiyi Shen. Another thing is that God is usually referred to as Father by the Confucians and as Mother by the Daoists (of course theologically speaking God doesn't really have a gender in the human sense, our use of gendered terms for God reflects on what we think of God instead of God's intrinsic quality). This doesn't mean Confucians are mostly men or Daoists are mostly women (though in ancient times there are both male and female Daoists but very few female Confucians) or something like that.
4. One difference between Traditional Chinese Religion and Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) is that in Traditional Chinese Religion there is less emphasis on the after-life. Confucius (6th century BC) says: "We do not yet understand life, so how can we understand death?" To draw a parallel between Traditional Chinese Religion and Christianity here: The attitude of Traditional Chinese Religion has a similar feel to the slogan of the charity organisation Christian Aid: "We believe in life before death".
This doesn't mean Chinese people believe there is absolutely no life after death, it's just that the Chinese don't think about the after-life as much as people in some other religions.
Here are some quotes from famous people and texts regarding Chinese religion:
“From the very ancient days of Chinese history, down through the time of
Confucius to the present, we have records about the Chinese belief in one
Supreme God, the ruler over heaven and earth.” - Chen Jingpan, modern Chinese scholar
“Do the Chinese know the true God? . . . The evidence supplied by Chinese literature and history appears to me so strong, that I find it difficult to conceive how anyone, who has studied it, can come to the opposite conclusion. Have ever the Chinese, during the four thousand years over which their history extends, fashioned an image of Shangdi? They have not. Shangdi is self-existent.
He existed before the heaven and the earth and sun. He created
them. He rules over them. His years have no end.” - James Legge, 19th century Christian missionary in China and a student of Chinese philosophy
“Oh, vast and distant Heaven, who are called our parent.”
“Heaven gave birth to the multitudes of the people.”
“Heaven loves the people, and the rulers should reverence this mind of Heaven.”
“How great is the love of Heaven towards the people.”
“The king Wen, watchful and reverently with entire intelligence served God; And so secured the great blessing.”
“The way of the Lord On High (Shangdi) is not invariable,
(for he rewards a man according to his actions),
On the good doer He sends down all blessings,
And on the evil doer He sends down all miseries.”
“Heaven graciously distinguishes the virtuous; . . . Heaven punishes the
guilty. . . “
“Great is God, beholding the lower world in majesty.”
“Great Heaven is very intelligent.”
“Oh bright and high Heaven, who enlighteneth and ruleth this lower world.”
“The proud are delighted and the troubled are in sorrow.
O azure Heaven, O azure Heaven,
Look on these proud men,
Pity these who are troubled.”
“The famous prayer of King Ching in his ancestral temple:
‘Let me be reverent, let me be reverent (in attending to my duties);
(The way of) Heaven is evident,
And His appointment is not easily (preserved).
Let me not say that He is high aloft above me,
He ascends and descends about our doings,
He daily inspects us wherever we are. . . ‘”
"Have no worries or anxieties, for Shangdi is with you."
- quotes from three ancient Chinese classical texts, the Shijing (Book of Songs), the Chunqiu Zuozhuan (Master Zuo's Annotations of the Spring and Autumn Annals), and the Shangshu (Book of Ancient History), written approximately 1000 - 400 BC
“God above loves all the people. He cares for all things. There is nothing,
however small, that He did not create. And human beings also receive and
make use of these blessings. The love of God for all things cannot be
denied. . . . This is my reason for thinking God cares for all things, because God made the sun, the moon, and the stars separate, so that they would shine on all the world. He also ordered spring, fall, winter and summer, the four seasons, setting them firmly in order. He sends thunder, frost, rain, snow, and dews, allowing grain and silk and hemp to grow, and letting human beings profit from all these. He also put in place the mountains, rivers, ravines, and valleys, providing us with all things.”
"This is the Will of Heaven: I love you, therefore you should love one another. I care for you, therefore you should care for one another. Such love is called Universal Love, such care is called Great Care."
- Mozi, ancient Chinese philosopher, 5th century BC
“Of old in the beginning, there was the great chaos, without form and dark.
The five elements had not begun to transform, nor the sun and the
moon to shine. In the midst thereof there existed neither forms nor sound.
Thou, O Spiritual Sovereign, camest forth in Thy presidency, and first didst
divide the grosser parts from the purer. Thou madest heaven; Thou madest
earth; Thou madest man. All things with their reproducing power got their
being.”
- Official ceremonial texts used in the annual sacrificial rituals made to Heaven by the ancient Chinese emperors (the most important official religious ceremony in ancient China)
I have not written much here, so please feel free to reply to me if you are interested in this topic. My knowledge in this matter is poor but I will try my best. I've also translated the Daode Jing (The Book of the Way and Virtue - the foundation text of Daoism) into English myself. I can email it to you if you are interested. |
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elle
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 334
Location: Nottingham, UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: I am digesting your article. |
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| I am so pleased you have posted here and on this topic. It is a bit complex to digest in one go, so I will be back to discuss some of the issues you have raised. Hopefull others will also pitch in. |
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taichi
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 59
Location: australia
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: printable |
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Yes, I must second Elle that this is precious information which needs time to digest. I would like to read your writing on paper, Would it be possible to email it to me in a printable WORD version?
I found the Daodejing verses on which Tai Chi Chuan is based very ambiguous and nearly untranslatable into English. However, I have read a few translations of it.
At present I translate my teacher's article on how push hands(a kind of martial sensitivity training in Tai Chi) relate to the 8 trigrams and 16 hexagrams. the wisdom of I Ching is also the heart of Tai Chi.He is German, speaks Chinese fluently and I translate from German into English. Again i feel that i need to go back to Chinese classes |
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elle
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 334
Location: Nottingham, UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: CONFUSIONS? |
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To Quote Chineseperson, " Traditionally Chinese people believed in a symbiotic combination of three religions, Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism"
To begin with, Confucianism is and was never a religion. It was a philosophy. But this philosophy has been so applicable to China that the philosophies were interwoven with Taoist and later Buddhist religious philosophies, so much so, that most Chinese cannot differentiate as to which philosophy is from which belief. Go to any Taoist Temple, and you will observe Buddhist practices being observed, and vice versa. Are there Confucious temples and priests in existence? To most Chinese, it makes little difference whether they burn joss sticks or bow down to a Taoist or a Buddhist symbol. Some of these differences are accentuated at funeral rites when there can be a great deviation in practice and ritual.
So with such confusion among the general populace how can there be a clear cut identification of their religious identity? It is all one big muddle and "chap-chai" of customs and beliefs. Perhaps all this could be thrown into one big melting pot and called the Noveau Chinese Religion?
I ask you why is this so? And should something be done about it? It is the only continent where the religion is a jumble of beliefs and practices. Perhaps I am quite mistaken about this concept, so please tell me more. |
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Chineseperson
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: CONFUSIONS? |
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| elle wrote: | To Quote Chineseperson, " Traditionally Chinese people believed in a symbiotic combination of three religions, Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism"
To begin with, Confucianism is and was never a religion. It was a philosophy.
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Actually the question of whether Confucianism is a religion or a philosophy cannot be answered so simply. There is no clear-cut division between religion and philosophy. Besides, the concepts of "religion" and "philosophy" are strictly speaking Western constructs, and in ancient China there was no explicit division between the two.
| Quote: |
But this philosophy has been so applicable to China that the philosophies were interwoven with Taoist and later Buddhist religious philosophies, so much so, that most Chinese cannot differentiate as to which philosophy is from which belief. Go to any Taoist Temple, and you will observe Buddhist practices being observed, and vice versa. Are there Confucious temples and priests in existence? To most Chinese, it makes little difference whether they burn joss sticks or bow down to a Taoist or a Buddhist symbol. Some of these differences are accentuated at funeral rites when there can be a great deviation in practice and ritual.
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There are many Confucian temples in China which are still used by people. In ancient times there was also the annual sacrificial rituals offered to Shangdi by the emperors at the Temple of Heaven.
There is indeed a lot of diversity in Chinese folk religion, but it would be wrong to think that there is no unifying factor. In "official" or "scholastic" Chinese religion, the system is much better defined. It is just that the "higher" aspects of traditional Chinese religion is not so well-known nowadays. But it is true that traditional Chinese religion has always been more syncretistic and liberal compared with the more strict Western religions.
| Quote: |
So with such confusion among the general populace how can there be a clear cut identification of their religious identity? It is all one big muddle and "chap-chai" of customs and beliefs. Perhaps all this could be thrown into one big melting pot and called the Noveau Chinese Religion?
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I think there is some cultural differences between us here. Is a "big melting pot" necessarily a bad idea? Because of the great amount of religious tolerance in Chinese culture, we have never had things akin to the crusades or the jihads in our history. In ancient China one is never killed simply because he or she held a different and "heretical" religious belief.
I don't see why there cannot be unity within diversity. As I have mentioned already, there are unifying factors in Traditional Chinese Religion at the scholastic level. I think diversity can be a good thing for Chinese religious identity as long as the underlying unity is also recognised.
Metaphysically the one unifying factor in Traditional Chinese Religion is the concept of Dao. It is not only the Daoists who revere the Dao, but it is also a concept that is at the centre of Confucianism and many other schools of ancient Chinese philosophy. In fact this concept is also important in Chinese Buddhism and is central to the theology of Ancient Chinese Christianity.
The Dao is the panentheistic Dynamic Principle and Animating Force behind all of existence. It is the Ground of Being and Ultimate Root of all things. As a Chinese proverb says: "The Principle is One but Its manifestations are numerous."
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I ask you why is this so? And should something be done about it? It is the only continent where the religion is a jumble of beliefs and practices. Perhaps I am quite mistaken about this concept, so please tell me more. |
Actually the traditional religion in India (apart from Islam) is also very diverse and syncretistic. Some Indians even say that Hinduism is not really a single religion but actually a combination of religions. |
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elle
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 334
Location: Nottingham, UK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Chineseperson
| Quote: | | Actually the question of whether Confucianism is a religion or a philosophy cannot be answered so simply. There is no clear-cut division between religion and philosophy. Besides, the concepts of "religion" and "philosophy" are strictly speaking Western constructs, and in ancient China there was no explicit division between the two. |
And from the web. http://www.urantiabook.org/archive/readers/601_confucianism.htm
| Quote: | CONFUCIANISM
The Religion of Social Propriety
Confucianism has been the chief cultural influence of China for centuries. The teachings of Confucius were never intended to be a religion. It has no revelatory sacred writings, no priesthood, no doctrine of an afterlife, and frowned on asceticism and monasticism. Later Confucius was deified and raised to the rank of Emperor and Co-assessor with the deities in Heaven and Earth. Official animal sacrifices were made at the tomb of Confucius for centuries. In 1982 Confucianism claims 156,070,100 adherents.
The Chinese name of Confucius was Kung. His disciples called him Kung, the master (Kung Fu-tse) which western missionaries Latinized to "Confucius." He was born in 551 B. C. of an aristocratic family who had lost their wealth and position. His father, who died before Confucius was three, is said to have been a famous warrior of gigantic size and strength who was seventy years old when Confucius was conceived. Confucius was the youngest of eleven children. He grew up in poverty but received a good education. In his teens he accepted a minor government position, married and fathered a son but the marriage ended in divorce.
In his twenties, following his mother's death, Confucius set himself up as a teacher. He taught the traditional Six Disciplines: history, poetry, government, propriety (ethics), music, and divination. Confucius became one of the great teachers of history but aspired to public office. He had supreme confidence in his ability to reorder society.
Legend has it that at the age of fifty Confucius ascended through the offices of Minister of Public Works and Minister of Justice to Prime Minister. His government was ideal. Enemies, however, conspired against him and he was forced to retire at the age of fifty-five. In reality, scholarly speculation has assumed that contemporary rulers were much too afraid of Confucius' candor and integrity to appoint him to any position involving power.
During the next twelve years Confucius wandered from place to place with a few of his disciples. He was jeered at and even placed in jail. At the age of sixty-seven a position was found for him as an advisor to the Duke of Ai. During the next years he spent his time teaching and compiling some of the classic Chinese texts. He died in 479 B. C. Confucius was not only a wise man, he was an incorruptible, human-hearted man. Although largely defeated in his purpose of reforming society, he died with courage, saying, "There is not one in the empire that will make me his master!" |
So by definition, the philosophies of Master Kung, were the sophisticated thoughts of a wise Oriental sage. He expounded his theories about the rule of the Emperor, and the harmony within the Chinese families. In this respect he was an even wiser and more learned than the European, Machaivalli, so venerated for his Political Science logic, yet applicable to any family heirarchy as well.
Chineseperson
| Quote: | | There is indeed a lot of diversity in Chinese folk religion, but it would be wrong to think that there is no unifying factor. In "official" or "scholastic" Chinese religion, the system is much better defined. It is just that the "higher" aspects of traditional Chinese religion is not so well-known nowadays. But it is true that traditional Chinese religion has always been more syncretistic and liberal compared with the more strict Western religions. |
You mention here, "scholastic Chinese religion". Are there learned bodies who have dedicated their lives to the study of the development of religion in China? Are they dedicated religious men who wish to establish or revive the "faith" in China? Are these people true academics? I would like to know more about such groups if they exist.
You mentioned that there is no history of religious persecution in China. I would like to remind you that the Boxer Rebellion was a war of cultures/religion not too long ago.I know too that it much more complex than that. I am sure there will be other incidents if I dig further. Although, I know that the Chinese character is very tolerant of other people's faiths, due partly to Tao and Confucius philosophies. |
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Chineseperson
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| elle wrote: | Chineseperson
| Quote: | | Actually the question of whether Confucianism is a religion or a philosophy cannot be answered so simply. There is no clear-cut division between religion and philosophy. Besides, the concepts of "religion" and "philosophy" are strictly speaking Western constructs, and in ancient China there was no explicit division between the two. |
And from the web. http://www.urantiabook.org/archive/readers/601_confucianism.htm
| Quote: | CONFUCIANISM
The Religion of Social Propriety
Confucianism has been the chief cultural influence of China for centuries. The teachings of Confucius were never intended to be a religion. It has no revelatory sacred writings, no priesthood, no doctrine of an afterlife, and frowned on asceticism and monasticism.
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This is a very Western-centric view of "religion". Although Confucianism has no explicit special revelations, Confucius did believe he had a special mission from Heaven to restore benevolence in Chinese society. He believed he was a teacher sent by Heaven.
As for priesthood, note that in ancient Chinese Confucianism, religion and politics combined, so the Chinese imperial government is the priesthood, and the Chinese emperor functions as the Confucian high priest.
It is true that Confucius never explicitly mentioned the afterlife. However, he never denied its existence either. You might not know this but in the original Zhou Dynasty Chinese religion from which both Confucianism and Daoism are derived from, there is an explicit view of the after-life in which one's spirit joins with the Dao of Heaven and the spirits of one's ancestors. It's just that Confucius did not focus on this aspect of the Zhou religion. In Confucianism one pays respect to his or her ancestors (I should add that in the original Zhou religion both male and female ancestors are revered) because it is the ritually appropriate thing to do, not necessarily because the ancestral spirits really are there waiting to receive one's sacrificial offerings. (Though of course it is also perfectly ok if one really does believe in this)
As for asceticism and monasticism, I hardly think these are fundamental pre-requisites for religion. Many branches of Protestant Christianity also frown upon monasticism, for example.
| Quote: |
So by definition, the philosophies of Master Kung, were the sophisticated thoughts of a wise Oriental sage. He expounded his theories about the rule of the Emperor, and the harmony within the Chinese families. In this respect he was an even wiser and more learned than the European, Machaivalli, so venerated for his Political Science logic, yet applicable to any family heirarchy as well.
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There is a fundamental difference between Confucius and Machaivalli in that Confucianism believes in love and benevolence for its own sake and is not purely utilitarian. The ancient Chinese legalists are actually more similar to Machaivalli.
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Chineseperson
| Quote: | | There is indeed a lot of diversity in Chinese folk religion, but it would be wrong to think that there is no unifying factor. In "official" or "scholastic" Chinese religion, the system is much better defined. It is just that the "higher" aspects of traditional Chinese religion is not so well-known nowadays. But it is true that traditional Chinese religion has always been more syncretistic and liberal compared with the more strict Western religions. |
You mention here, "scholastic Chinese religion". Are there learned bodies who have dedicated their lives to the study of the development of religion in China? Are they dedicated religious men who wish to establish or revive the "faith" in China? Are these people true academics? I would like to know more about such groups if they exist.
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Yes to all of your questions. In ancient times there were scholars and priests in both Confucian academies and Daoist temples who were dedicated to the "scholastic" or theoretical aspects of Chinese religion. Ancient Chinese Daoist philosophy reached a high level of metaphysical sophistication. During the period of Mongol occupation (the Yuan Dynasty, 1279 - 1368 AD), the Mongolian khan and Yuan emperor Kubilai organised a major theoretical and philosophical debate between the Daoists and the Tibetan Buddhists. However, after the end of the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644 AD), Daoism, especially High Daoism, gradually declined.
Of course Chinese religion is more liberal and syncretistic in its intrinsic nature. So there was never a single institution that forcefully made everyone agree to a single set of doctrines. The philosophical and religious ideas of different schools and different dynasties may be quite different from each other. In this sense ancient Chinese religion and philosophy is more similar to the various schools of classical Greek philosophy in antiquity than it is to the Church of medieval Europe.
Today there are groups and individuals who are dedicated to the development of Chinese religion and philosophy. Some of them have high academic qualifications. The development of Chinese religion and philosophy suffered greatly during the Cultural Revolution when many eminent scholars and philosophers were tortured and killed, but today the situation has been restored to some extent. Many of these people may have quite different opinions and interpretations regarding Chinese religion and philosophy though.
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You mentioned that there is no history of religious persecution in China. I would like to remind you that the Boxer Rebellion was a war of cultures/religion not too long ago.I know too that it much more complex than that. I am sure there will be other incidents if I dig further. Although, I know that the Chinese character is very tolerant of other people's faiths, due partly to Tao and Confucius philosophies. |
The Boxer Rebellion was a special case. I think it was more due to socio-political factors rather than religious ones. Chinese people are not intrinsically hostile to Christianity, but during the end of the 19th century some missionaries looked down on the Chinese people and were quite hostile towards Chinese culture, which induced a backlash against Christians in China. I guess sometimes it is quite difficult to be tolerant towards something that does not tolerate others itself. (This is not to say that all missionaries during the 19th century were like this, there were also many good people, for example James Legge) However, when Eastern Christians arrived in Tang Dynasty China from Persia in the 7th century AD, they were officially welcomed with open arms. The Chinese prime minister himself was sent to greet the missionaries outside the Chinese imperial capital of Chang An and the emperor Tang Taizong was so impressed with Eastern/Nestorian Christianity that he actually built a Nestorian Church within the Daoist temple complex of the Tang imperial family. (Daoism was the official religion of Tang China) Remains of this church still exist today.
This difference in the kind of response received is due to many factors. Early Tang China was powerful and confident, late Qing China was weak and xenophobic. Tang China and Sassanian Persia were political allies, Qing China and the Western powers of the 19th century were more or less enemies. Nestorian Christianity was also much more tolerant itself compared with some of the more fundamentalist branches of 19th century Christianity. (It was the Nestorians who first translated the philosophical works of classical Greece into Arabic, the fundamentalists on the other hand despised philosophy)
Also, when Matteo Ricci arrived in Ming China at the end of the 16th century, the Chinese response was also quite favorable as Ricci identified with Chinese philosophy and traditions. |
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elle
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 334
Location: Nottingham, UK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: Confucianism |
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Chineseperson
| Quote: | This is a very Western-centric view of "religion". Although Confucianism has no explicit special revelations, Confucius did believe he had a special mission from Heaven to restore benevolence in Chinese society. He believed he was a teacher sent by Heaven.
As for priesthood, note that in ancient Chinese Confucianism, religion and politics combined, so the Chinese imperial government is the priesthood, and the Chinese emperor functions as the Confucian high priest. |
I feel you are really streaching the imagination (or spinning a bit) with this rhetoric. My language of use is English and so I can only have access to English literature. I am sure that scholars of Chinese philosophies have attempted to be as accurate on such translations as is possible. So my views must necessarily be that obtained from English written literature. If there were any ancient (as opposed to modern interpretations in Chinese language) literature or understandings of the philosophies of Master Kung that has been incorrectly expressed, then the scholars would certainly have made corrections to these concepts. I have not come across any such corrections of views on the philosophy of Master Kung.
The extension or hypothesis that The Emperor play the role of the Confucian High Priest, and the religious rituals of the Confucian religion, is really far fetched, if I may say so. The whole world has accepted that Confucius proposed some of the greatest and logical philosophies of his time, so much so, must of his philosophies are still alive and practiced today. That should be accolade enough? To try to resurrect Kung Fu-Tse, as a 2500 year religious cult, does dishonour to Kung Fu-tse.
I am prepared to discuss the intellectual aspects of Chinese religions but if we are going into sur-realism and try to "cannonize" (?) Kung Fu-Tse in the 21st century, I will not continue with this charade. I mean it!
Chinesepeople
| Quote: | . In this sense ancient Chinese religion and philosophy is more similar to the various schools of classical Greek philosophy in antiquity than it is to the Church of medieval Europe.
Today there are groups and individuals who are dedicated to the development of Chinese religion and philosophy. Some of them have high academic qualifications. The development of Chinese religion and philosophy suffered greatly during the Cultural Revolution when many eminent scholars and philosophers were tortured and killed, but today the situation has been restored to some extent. Many of these people may have quite different opinions and interpretations regarding Chinese religion and philosophy though. |
Yes I am aware that in times past there were students of Kung Fu-Tse, and Lao Tse etc, but there has not been that much study and revival since those early days, that is why I asked. Yes, the Cultural Revolution destroyed a large segment of the Chinese culture and it was a vicious and as nasty as the Taliban were in Afghanistan. I do hope that the gaps can be filled in with accurate facts by modern scholars. I am sure anyone who undertakes such study would be real and true academics. It is hoped that these new academia will not try to put a modern interpretation of ancient philosophies.
(I suddenly cannot copy and paste here. Nevermind!)
I have to correct the conception of the Boxer Rebellion. The Chinese people were angered by the degradation of their society and culture by the ineffectiveness of the Emperor to stop the Opium Trade, and the corruption of the nation. This rebellion was against this corruption of China by Western powers. The rebellion was initiated by Triads, and given support and protection by Taoist priests and withing their temples. Unfortunately, Christian missionaries were always associated with the mercenary European traders, and were identified as collaborators and spies for the western armies. Unfortunately, Chinese Christians too were so identified by association. So the enemy was the Westerners, Christian Missionaries, and Chinese Christians. So in a way it can bee seen as a hatred of the western peoples and the evil they brought with them. That was the Boxer Rebellion.
Bring us to modern day, it can be interpreted that the subjugation of Tibet is a subjugation of Tibetian Buddhism. Then there is the persecution of the Falun gong cult. You also have an emerging danger spot, the demands of Muslim China for possible autonomy, and this could bring forth a real revolution.
To finish this dialogue I continue with the following:
| Quote: | Li (social propriety) is the greatest principle of living. When society lives by li it moves smoothly. Confucius saw the embodiment of this society in the idealized form of feudalistic government, illustrated by the Five Relationships: kindness in the father, filial piety in the son; gentility in the eldest brother, humility and respect in the younger; righteousness behavior in the husband, obedience in the wife; humane consideration in elders, deference in juniors; benevolence in rulers, loyalty in ministers and subjects. Li may also refer to the "middle way" in all things.
Just as li is the outward expression of the superior man, jen (goodness, humaneness, love) is the inner ideal. Confucius taught that men should love one another and practice respect and courtesy. If li and jen were operative in a person, the end product would be the Confucian goal: the superior man. Confucius believed in the natural goodness or at least the natural perfectibility of man. He stressed government by virtue (Te) and the arts of peace (Wen). Since filial piety is the root of all virtue this concern for parental respect is seen in the veneration of age and ancestor worship. Confucius was a pragmatic man who thought one should respect the spirits but keep them at a distance.
Confucius regarded himself as a transmitter, not the originator, of social values and wisdom. Although Confucianism does not claim revelatory scriptures, the Five Classics and the Four Books are regarded as the touch-stone of Confucian conduct and wisdom. Mencius and Hsun Tzu were the great expositors of Confucius in the fourth and third centuries B.C. and did much to popularize and spread his teachings. During the Han Dynasty there developed a cult of Confucius himself. By the sixth century A.D. every prefecture in China had a temple to honor Confucius.
The Confucian cult was checked in 1503 when the images of Confucius were ordered removed from the temples and replaced with wooden tablets inscribed with his teachings. All titles were removed and he was spoken of simply as "Master Kung, the perfect teacher of antiquity." In 1906 there was an attempt to revive the Confucian cult but with the birth of the People's Republic of China all sacrifices to Confucius and other religious observances were officially abandoned. |
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Jeff Minter
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Excellent piece, and certainly an interesting topic that really should be brought up more often. Don't have time to go into a nice debate about this, but I can say that's it's going to be interesting to see China once it has reached a similar level of advancement similar to that of the west. A lot of future policies and research planning has been affected by religion in the States, and in a way it's shaping (restricting?) their own advancement. To do away with this "spiritual bureaucracy" would be something unique. |
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