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OceanLee
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 85
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 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Firstly, calm down, both of you! I think you both have a few very valid points. SP is correct in that European names are easier to pronounce, they share much the same alphabet for starters. I think you're mistaken if you think all the famous foreigners you mentioned have unpronouncable names. For starters, Sven is in fact known for being a very common Scandanavian name, and Nassar Hussein is hardly difficult to pronounce. I'd venture (not in an accusary way mind) that you probably have had less exposure to european culture than me or Sp. I take it as a kind of given that its easier to use an english name than a chinese one. No matter how many times I teach friends the correct pronunciation of my name they always forget the correct intonations. I'd be annoyed eventually if I had to teach everyone my chinese name over and over again. In fact I prefer to use my english name more to prevent anyone else bastardizing the chinese language more than anything.
On the other hand, if chinese people are referring to other chinese people using adopted english names, well then, thats just poor. It does seem that chinas losing its cultural heritage and becoming too westernised in too many ways. It winds me up that canto-pop stars and actors promote this as a good thing, which is just as well because I have little time for canto pop anyway :)
On ending, I'd urge you to take a look at the modern day wales and how it too is losing its culture. Many of the same circumstances apply, how english culture is replacing welsh, and the original welsh society is being watered down (by an influx of the english literally, rather than metaphorically!) |
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sp
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 218
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| Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: It's Sven but my English name is Jeffery |
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| john_smith wrote: | | English friends for many years and they are free to call me by my Chinese name and they are certainly aware of it. |
I don't think it's not going to happen unless you take a stand, john. Why don't you *insist* that they use your Chinese name? Perhaps you value your English name just a little too much.
| Quote: | | Does Martin Lee, Emily Lau, Anson Chan and Donald Tsang speak english to each other? Or do their Chinese names hinder their political careers? I doubt it |
'Martin Lee' is not his real name. His real name is Lee Chu Ming which I'd guess is what his friends, family and local Hong Kongers know him by. As you know, 99 years of British rule made English nicknames quite fashionable - rather like western suits and jeans are fashionable.
Having an English nickname has worked to Lee's advantage on the international stage. He has a pretty good profile and is quite well known amongst western politicians and overseas Chinese - useful if you're a pro-democracy campaigner. This might have happened even without using an English nickname but can you say for certain that is has been of zero benefit to him? But at the end of the day his real name is Lee Chu Ming.
As far as I know, President Putin's counterpart the President of China does not use an English name, so no worries there.
Actually, while you criticise Lee, Emily Lau and Anson Chan, their names stick in the mind, don't they? Besides the leader Tung Chee Wa, I wonder which HK politicians without western names have attained such a level of recognition amongst overseas Chinese people. Hmm...
While we're at it, are you now going to criticise any famous Chinese person who's used a western name? Will you now denigrate Bruce Lee for not using his Chinese name Lee Siu Lung, or Jackie Chan for not sticking with Chan Kong Sang? Or John Woo or Vanessa Mae or Lucy Liu or Tony Leung or Maggie Cheung etc.
You seem to consider these western names as highly important and part of someone's character, when I consider them no more integral than a suit you wear to an interview. The English name does not replace the Chinese name. My view is "So what?"
Sven and Yasser: Neither of these names are Chinese. People may not get the pronunciation of their name spot on first time but there is hardly any scope for error. The same goes for Vladimir, Masahiro and Severaine. Look at the words. They are actually quite easy to pronounce - if not 100% right then 95% right.
Chinese is different. If an English person mispronounces 'Fuk Mi', or 'Suk Ng', failing to get the precise Chinese tones, there is more scope for embarrassment and for the Chinese person to look silly or have to correct them. Hence the benefit of a western nickname. Phonetically, Chinese is unlike any of the languages you've mentioned so you can't compare them.
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Well I guess we can debate this till the cows come home. The reason I don't have much sympathy for this topic is that the overall tone of it, whilst apparently calling for 'more pride', is basically criticism of fellow Chinese people. The undertone is criticism of any Chinese person who uses an English name, and that is a hell of a lot of people including many of our most successful achievers.
You see the increase in use of western nicknames as anti-Chinese culture (even though you happily use one yourself). I see it as a sign of increasing ambition, and an increasing desire to 'mix it' on the modern, international stage. If you hate the idea so much john_smith, start by ditching your own western name.
Do what works for you. I would like Chinese people to achieve their full potential and if it involves something trivial like using a western nickname, then so be it. |
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reuters2020
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Confucius, do you have an English name? |
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| john_smith wrote: | Hello everyone, I have just discovered this site and I am posting my first topic.
Nowadays it is rarer to see a Chinese person (BBC or not) being called by the original Chinese name. This is spreading even amongst the mainland chinese who more and more give themselves an English name. I too am referred by all my friends through my English nickname as it was given to me by my father when I was a baby. I notice that when my Chinese friends introduce themselves to (white) English people using their Chinese name, they are immediately asked if they have an English name. This is because the Chinese are embarrased about teaching non-Chinese people to pronounce their names properly.
What is my point? Well I have travelled alot and I have met people from all over the world and most of them - do not have an English name. For instance I have colleagues from Germany and Israel and no-one would dream of asking a German if he has an English name - "Gerhad, do you have an English name?". I have found that Greek and Arabic names are the hardest to pronounce (think Aristotle, Abdullah etc) but English people make extra efforts to pronounce them correct. And the Greeks and Arabs have no embarrassment about this. I believe that the reason Chinese choose English names is to with an insecurity(worried about the gigles from the English) and also a lack of pride in Chinese culture. Chinese names like English names have meanings, when English parents name a baby, they choose a name for its meanings also (eg Peter=the Rock). Is it about time Chinese (especially BBCs) should reclaim the names our parents gave us? Or will it be long before some BBCs have Brooklyn, Phonenix Chi and Fifi Trixibelle as their English name? |
Dude, have you heard some of the names they use in Hong Kong? I have met people called Evo and Darling and there is a celebrity called Fruit and one called Pineapple, plus there is of course Edison Chan. You think those people are trying to blend in?? Come on its all about fashion. sp is right about the clothes thing, having a western name is a lot like wearing western clothes - its just an image thing. You will always have Chinese roots whatever. |
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eye_candy1870
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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these people are nobs as far iam concerned. They have english names and they pronouce it in a engrish HK way, do they realise how stupid they look to a white person??
This guy from work asked me why there are so many people in HK that have english names...I couldnt answer him as I know they arent all Christians. When he first met me I introduced myself in the normal way, he then asked what my english name was...what a joke |
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reuters2020
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| eye_candy1870 wrote: | | do they realise how stupid they look to a white person?? |
So? Are you saying how things seem to a white person is important to you? It just shows that these guys are not choosing names to 'please' white people which is what has been implied, they are just doing for themselves as a kind of fashion statement more than anything. |
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GundamRX78
Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 10
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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I think you get confused with Traditional Chinese dress, we did not get pony tail until Qing Dynasty (1643-1911). The Han people needed to follow the outfit and hair style of Manchurian (Tribe of North East China). Manchurian have ruled China for almost 300 years, so many people even chinese people think our traditional hair style has pony tail. Our Clothing get westernized, it is because of Hong Kong being ruled by British and all the Mainland China and Taiwan follow our style. I know that just about 20 years ago, the people in Mainland China were still wearing 'Chun Shan' style clothing.
I get a English name, because it was required by my kindergarden. When I came to this country, many English people could not pronounce it well, so I gave them my English name in order easy for them.
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GweiLo
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:40 am Post subject: |
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As sp says, You seem to consider these western names as highly important and part of someone's character. I take the shakespearian view....."whats in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
It makes not once ounce of difference to who I am or my pride in my culture if you call me Steven Palmer or Pau Si Fu. If the latter suits you better I am happy for you to use it. If you really think that using an English name makes someone less Chinese somehow then logically I am more Chinese by using a Chinese name even though I am a white Englishman.....what nonsense.
If one follows your argument to its logical conclussion then a Chinese person shouldn't romantisise thier name.....and then we poor Brits won't have a clue who any of you are. Oh, but we would know you were Chinese and we are all too stupid to realise that someone called Michael Chan is Chinese aren't we? |
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eye_candy1870
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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gwei lo,
It seems we have a running debate on every subject on this board. You cant get away from you people even on a chinese forum!
If you think names arent important why do you think thousands of black americans are discarding their slave names (anglo christian) for those of Islamic or African origins?
Names are who we identify with (maybe not you or your kids) thats why all my male cousins have exactly the same first names and as do my female cousins. We may be a dying breed in light of the current hk 'trend' but iam very proud of where my name originated from its meaning.
This really is a cultural clash isnt it? Gwai lo, Chinese people can abandon their chiense culture and adopt a western one (i think you already know this...) |
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sp
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 218
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| eye_candy1870 wrote: | | If you think names arent important why do you think thousands of black americans are discarding their slave names (anglo christian) for those of Islamic or African origins? |
The main reasons for black Americans to discard their 'slave' names are
A) because they were forced on them and
B) they ended up replacing their family names (surnames)
Chinese people don't swap their Chinese surnames for western ones.
If they use a western first name, they still keep their Chinese name.
If they use a western first name, it is usually their own choice and a matter of personal preference.
There is therefore no parallell to be drawn with black Americans discarding their slave names.
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GweiLo
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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eye_candy1870,
We certainly do seem to disagree about just about everything. However, it seems that just about everyone disagrees with most of what you have to say, so I don't think it has anything to do with "us people". I think it has to do with your intolerance of other people and other peoples ideas.
As I said in my previous post. Using your Chinese name may be important to you, thats fine, no criticism of that from me. Just because you set great importance by it and percieve all manner of symbolism does not mean that others do, indeed they clearly don't. Just because you think something does not make it so.
My wife has exactly the same first name as others of her generation in her family, as is the tradition. She is also a Catholic and chose a Christian name when she was confirmed, also traditional in that church. She uses both names, depending upon the circumstances and is just as proud of her heritage and culture as anyone else.
Speaking of people "abandoning" their culture is emotive, but cultures change and adapt over time and according to the place people find themselves at. Even Chinese culture changes and adapts. So the idea of abandonment is just absurd. All people, of any culture, having varying degrees of cultural convervatism. If you choose to be conservative that is fine, that is your choice, but others are free to make their own choices and are no less "Chinese" because of it.
As for the Black American anology sp has already pointed out why it is a poor one.
Incedentally, if you come here to get away from "us people" then you came to the wrong place. I have been visiting here and posting here on and off for a couple of years. I have always been made welcome here, been encouraged by others to express my opinion, and intend to continue doing so.
I think it may be that US site that you yearn for. |
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