Confucius, do you have an English name?

john_smith · Joined: 20 Nov 2003 Posts: 5

Hello everyone, I have just discovered this site and I am posting my first topic.

Nowadays it is rarer to see a Chinese person (BBC or not) being called by the original Chinese name. This is spreading even amongst the mainland chinese who more and more give themselves an English name. I too am referred by all my friends through my English nickname as it was given to me by my father when I was a baby. I notice that when my Chinese friends introduce themselves to (white) English people using their Chinese name, they are immediately asked if they have an English name. This is because the Chinese are embarrased about teaching non-Chinese people to pronounce their names properly.

What is my point? Well I have travelled alot and I have met people from all over the world and most of them - do not have an English name. For instance I have colleagues from Germany and Israel and no-one would dream of asking a German if he has an English name - "Gerhad, do you have an English name?". I have found that Greek and Arabic names are the hardest to pronounce (think Aristotle, Abdullah etc) but English people make extra efforts to pronounce them correct. And the Greeks and Arabs have no embarrassment about this. I believe that the reason Chinese choose English names is to with an insecurity(worried about the gigles from the English) and also a lack of pride in Chinese culture. Chinese names like English names have meanings, when English parents name a baby, they choose a name for its meanings also (eg Peter=the Rock). Is it about time Chinese (especially BBCs) should reclaim the names our parents gave us? Or will it be long before some BBCs have Brooklyn, Phonenix Chi and Fifi Trixibelle as their English name?

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

Europeans don't have to adopt a name because their given names are phonetically easy for English people to pronounce and are often similar to English names anyway.

Just do whatever you feel comfortable with. Giving yourself an English nickname can be beneficial in work and social situations. If you really want to stick with your Chinese name then stick with it. What's the problem?

eye_candy1870 · Joined: 08 May 2003 Posts: 86

sp,

you are really REALLY slow arent you. This guy is making a statement that some chinese (mostly HK) call themselves white european names because they feel insecure and you still dont get his point??

Guest · Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:01 pm Post subject: Identity

The lack of pride in Contemporary Chinese culture, not retaining original Chinese names and merely avoiding the fact that you are of Chinese or East Asian origin, and having to give yourself an English name, do demonstrate the insecurity, the British Chinese are having to face.

Hong Kong would be a very good example, where by having an English first name is some form of status symbol. Look at HK Canto-pop, it thrives on this. To be Westernised is a positive thing?

Generally people from the Black Community who have English names, were originally descended from African Black slaves, who took up their Masters names after Slavery was abolished. Its very similar to Hong Kong, a by-product from pre-1997, if you look at it in that perspective.

There are not many Asians who name their children or try to hide their children’s identity with an English first name, David Mohammed. If people cannot be bothered to pronounce your name, then there is obviously a lack of respect?

I am not sure about giving yourself an English nickname can be beneficial in work and social situations SP? This should not be the case. It sounds a bit like some of the tactics and interventions used in communities who are faced with Diaspora issues. Have a look at the author Rey Chow "Tactics & Interventions".

There is no point pretending or putting up a false image of yourself, in order to please someone else or what they feel or think about you.

Do you see any people who are off European descendants, giving their children a Chinese first name or even writing the name in Chinese characters, making it easier for Chinese people to pronounce or read?

Its a bit like a psychological ID tagging card thing, or a kind of face-lift to the name. Insecure of your flat nose and almond shape eyes. A slight surgery to touch up on those features in order to look westernised, being accepted(?).

Going on the theme of ‘Names’, in another part of the forum the subject ‘BBC’ was raised. I find this strange too to call yourself a BBC, do Irish people call themselves, BBI or the Welsh BBW? Its sounds too fuzzy, a bit of a grey area.

I know its generally a term used by people who don’t feel connected with the word British & Chinese. A term used by people who are temporarily unsure off their identity, until they feel comfortable with themselves. I certainly don’t use that term and it has never entered my mind.

The question is, why should Chinese families give their children Westernised first names, when they already have a Chinese name in Chinese Characters?

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

EDIT:To john_smith (I originally wrote this to Tay, but in fact it's john_snith this is mainly directed at).

I think you are making too big a deal out of this. A first name is just a given name and in most cultures (not just Chinese) can be changed or modified as much as you like without any implications for a person's core identity. I would say your FAMILY name is much more important and if a Chinese person changed their SURNAME to remove its Chineseness, I would consider that an attempt to hide their true nature. But adopting a first name is nothing. It's a flag of convenience.

If someone sees the name 'Mr. Wong', they know the person is Chinese whether his first name is Tom, Dick, Harry or Wai.

If a person feels it gives them an advantage in social or work situations, what is the problem? If it assists a Chinese person to succeed in their activities, I don't see what there is to object to.

I think the real issue here is your own prejudice against people who choose to do this. All I can say is, you can complain all you like; People are going to continue doing this and to gripe about it is a complete waste of your time. It is utterly pointless.

But as you feel so strongly about not diluting your Chineseness, can I ask you: When you go to work or attend a job interview, do you wear a suit? If so, why? And is your hair styled in the traditional Chinese way, with a 'q' ponytail? If not, why not?

---

PS: There is a different thread on the term 'bbc' here:

http://www.dimsum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=167

Guest

Hi sp, it is always good to hear from all sides, to balance out the argument, but I still feel people who adopt a English name for the sake, that it might benefit them in their work and social life, is honestly quite strange. Why should you have to do this in order to be successful or to make it easier to pronounce?

I don’t wear a suit for either work or a job interview, unless it is necessary, and my hair is not styled with a traditional pony tail. It is not the same thing, fashion and your actual (real) identity are very different, to the way people react and act according to the times, or the period.

I understand in most cultures the first name is selected, modified, and not affecting the individuals core identity - the surname. The mind-set of the people were very different to the period where kowtowing was necessary. And if you didn’t you were regarded as barbarians, who burnt down most of the beautiful palaces in Beijing.

The reason why people move their arms, legs and body in a particular way in water, is to stay a float and get around. It is no different to the way people react and behave in society, where by they behave in certain manners and do things a certain way, in order to get along in life.

Adopting a first English name is like swimming with flippers attached to your arms, or even having a third arm, which would all too often get in the way. Or an Aeroplane with helicopter blades attached, just in case the wings snapped off, and the blades are there as a back-up.

john_smith made some pretty good points. How ever much I try to dilute my ‘Chinese-ness’, if it took all the salt water in the Pacific Ocean, cleansing my skin until it is no longer yellow, my hair white as a ghost, I would still be Chinese, at least British Chinese.

To be honest I absolutely have no form of prejudice against people who do this or any complaints, but merely pointing out issues and helping to expand the subject raised by john_smith, possibly are taboos within the British Chinese Community?

Though it is true if someone sees the name ‘Mr Wong’, they can assume the person is of Chinese/East Asian origin. But why the first name in English, when you already have a Chinese one? Unfortunately this does demonstrate the lack of pride in Contemporary Chinese Culture, it is pretty clear.

I could understand if you were an actor or even an musician, where by taking on a fictional persona, helps to enhance an individuals artistic talents, in turn contributes to building a possible career, Bono (not real name) from U2 for example. But for everyday use, going to the shops to buy milk, having a pint or two in a pub, brainstorming with work colleagues, its sounds a bit absurd. Until you get home and only then referred to your Chinese name. A name plate which could be flipped depending on the context.

You may have encountered a situation where, introducing non-chinese friends and getting in a muddle, which name to introduce? “Oh this is Denh Chiu, no sorry you should call her Denise!”, feeling too embarrassed to say why. These are tiny signs of insecurity, I am no psychologise but 2+2 does not = 5.

sp, it is important to work together and not against each another, else it will defy the whole purpose of Dimsum. Possibly I am making a too big of a deal out all of this, but I feel I am not.

Which takes us back to the original question ‘Confucius, do you have an English name?’ or Blair do you have a Chinese name?

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

Sorry, most of what I had written should have been directed at the original poster john_smith.

As for the original question:

Confucius (born Kong Qiu, styled Zhong Ni) lived in 551 B.C. - 479 B.C., China. Confucius is a name given by Western missionary, which has no meaning to the Chinese. The Chinese people call him Kong Fuzi or Kong Zi or Master Kong.

http://chineseculture.about.com/library/weekly/aa031499.htm

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

This is worth looking into...

"I don’t wear a suit for either work or a job interview, unless it is necessary, and my hair is not styled with a traditional pony tail. It is not the same thing, fashion and your actual (real) identity are very different, to the way people react and act according to the times, or the period."

So you liken adopting an English nickname to plastic surgery but you admit you would wear a suit to an interview? Why don't you wear a true Chinese outfit such as the one shown here?

Is it because of insecurity? After all, why should you appeal to fickle western taste by wearing a suit? Remember the Chinese for suit is literally 'western costume'.

And why don't you have your hair in the traditional ponytail? This is a true Chinese style rather than an imported, foreign style.

And I hope you don't wear jeans or T-shirts either. Don't use the excuse of 'fashion' - these are western clothes that have nothing to do with Chinese culture. If you wear them, does it mean you are insecure? Are you trying to look westernizedby wearing these clothes?

You see, the more you think about this the more stupid it gets.

Like I said, 'Mr Wong' is Chinese whatever first name he uses. Has he *really* changed his name? No he hasn't. If he was born with a Chinese name he will die with a Chinese name. He has just asked one set of people to use a nickname, because it benefits him to do so. Do these people who use a western name go home to their familes and tell their parents to start using them?

To anyone who intends to tell people not to dilute their Chineseness, I request that they go through their wardrobe right now and remove any jeans, t-shirts, trainers, suits and other western garb until they look like this

Then maybe they will be in a position to tell others what to do.

john_smith · Joined: 20 Nov 2003 Posts: 5

Hello all,
I think eye_candy and tay have got it spot on. I think SP is making very superflous points. I agree with Tay that us Chinese suffer a deep insecurity with ourselves and this is reflected and expressed with the adoption of an English name. Adopting an English does dilute our Chinese identity. Unfortunately adopting an English does not make us immune from immunity. Being called Steven or Yang Wing makes no difference to eyes of a racist yobbo, you are still a 'chink' to him. SP made the point that adopting an English name yields advantages, but people of other minorities do not adopt English names. Yet they are more visible in the public eye than us Chinese. I feel that identity is undermind by those amongst who pressure or persuade those without an English one to adopt one. However, how many Russians, Germans, French or even Japanese people do the same thing, and adopt the English name to make it easier for Anglophones to prounce it. I have travelled around Europe and met lots of Japanese, they confidently introduce themselves as Akiro, Tetsuyo, Junko , (I've even come across a Kanemoto). With our Japanese friends it is the foreigner who feels embarrassment for not being able to pronounce Japanese names and make the effort to pronounce correctly. I feel that our community should adopt this attitude. If English people can pronounce Vladmir (Russian), Vaclav (Czech), Keimi (Finnish), Tohru Ukawa (Japanese) and Jan (German) correctly they should be made to pronounce Yang Wing, Xi-shan etc correctly also.

John-smith

Quote

"When our people were writing philosophy your people were still swinging from trees"

Greek father-in-law to American son-in-law in My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

I hate to repeat myself but....

First of all, those languages you mentioned are not as phonetically different to English as Chinese. It is easier for English people to pronounce these names for a start. You are actually wrong to say people from other minorities don't change their names. You may have heard of a lot of South Asian people called VJ, for example. Believe it or not, john_smith, their real name is not VJ!! Yes, amazing but true!!

You may also be interested to learn that when a westerner goes to China, to teach English for example, it is not unknown for them to adopt a Mandarin name if it is easier for the locals to pronounce and helps them settle in. So would you accuse them of being 'insecure' and of diluting their westerness? I doubt it somehow.

Secondly, john_smith, I take it you never wear suits, t-shirst, jeans or trainers. If you wear these clothes, you are clearly insecure, aren't you? Are you trying to blend in? I don't see why anyone should listen to your views about diluting Chineseness if you walk around in western clothes, blatantly trying to look 'western'.

Thirdly, like I said, Mr. WONG is Chinese whether his work colleagues call him Jack, Jill, Wing or Fatty. A first name nowhere near as important as your family name. It is your family name that conveys your roots and history.

In short: GET OVER IT.

PS And I hope you saw my answer to you intial question. Confucius is in fact a western nickname, not a Chinese name at all.

Guest · Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:07 pm Post subject: Culture & Identity

SP, I understand your previous comments were a direct feedback to john_smith.

I like the image you used as an example, it is a good one! To be honest I would wear a Chinese outfit, have a look at the revived silk couture from the fashion house Shanghai Tang - www.shanghaitang.com, one has opened in London. Traditional Chinese clothing, slightly modified to tailor for modern living standards, but still retaining its authenticity.

No body can stop anyone from diluting their ‘Chinese Identity’, it is impossible! People are entitled to their own opinion! Offering different points from different perspectives, in order to get a better, thorough, and balanced picture of a ‘subject’. Understanding how?, what? and why something is? or not working?, is better than creating more why?, what? and how?. Some of your points tend to be a bit superfluous.

By adopting an English/Western first name clearly demonstrates the image an individual hopes to strife or hope for, something better than themselves, whether its an Indian or Spanish name.

During the mid 1980s and a few years back ‘Japonism’ was made cool especially in London, with the help from the ID fashion magazine. From eating sushi, the Walkman, to watching Japanese films. English women started to style their hair, dress and indulge in Contemporary Japanese Culture. 20-30yrs further back, it was a different story, anything Japanese was considered ‘Jap Crap’ or associated with Pearl Harbour.

I still feel people dressed according to the signs of the times, the way they think and feel. Remember people at that time generally had a very narrow perception of their environment, culture, and importantly how all of that fits with in the bigger picture, this is reflected in how they dress. ‘Clothing and Actual Identity’ are very different subjects, but somehow linked by ‘Culture’.

If you have a look at any piece of clothing which are strongly associated with the West. The cuts, folds, and detailing, they tend to contain elements and particular styles absorbed from all kinds of cultures. And you may find western clothing may not be unique to that region, but in fact absorbed from their early interactions, with ancient and existing civilisations. In fact most clothing from any culture contain some elements from similar or contrasting cultures.

Why don’t people in England no longer wear Bob Hats or dress in Corsets, usually associated with Theatre? Its a very similar question, you were implying.

Continuing our theme “Image & Ideals”, the film “Fu Man Chu” many will agree contributed to the insecurity felt amongst many Chinese people who had mixed feelings of their culture at that time, and still does. Elements of this still ‘linger’ amongst the British Chinese Community and possibly in many of the dispersed communities spread out around the globe(?).

Have you not noticed peoples behaviour towards you, if you happen to have some facial hair, a moustache or even a beard? The negativity surrounding a Chinese face and facial hair (the wise old china man), and other bodily organs falsifying our true identity, dehumanising a culture before it has even been understood.

“Tomato Ketchup (Ke-Chup) is not English as one may think. Pasta (Mein Fun) is not Italian as one may think.” Westernism is a subversion of its close-encounters with previous civilisations.

Possibly this debate is all about evolving Traditional Chinese Culture and not diluting our core ‘Chinese Identity’? When culture evolves, key elements always get reduced and simplified. This may look as if the culture is being diluted?

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

john_smith · Joined: 20 Nov 2003 Posts: 5

sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

I'm finding it quite hard to take you seriously now, as you've shown yourself to be something of a hypocrite by using a Western name yourself, yet taking issue with other people who do the same thing.

Anyway I might as well answer you. The fact that you walk around in western clothes as opposed to proper Chinese clothing is a valid observation. You clearly see a benefit in looking western rather than sticking to your Chinese cultural roots and dressing in the style of the picture I posted. I'm afraid it's not a diversion. It simply shows the double standard at the heart of your argument. You are right that Japanese people also wear suits. So are they insecure too? I remind you that the Chinese for suit is literally 'western costume'.

Anyone who walks around in western clothes is not in a position to criticise people for 'trying to be western' by using an English nickname. It's double standards.

Westerners in China - they may well revert to their English names when with their countrymen. Just as most Chinese would revert to their Chinese names when with Chinese-speaking friends or family. A bbc might still use their English name when with other bbcs, because they are still in an English-speaking group and it would be counterproductive for them to use 2 names. When I go back to my village in Hong Kong, I dump my English name and revert to my Chinese name. You use whatever name is appropriate for the group you're in.

As I have said, a first name does not relate to one's core identity, unlike a family name. 'Mr. Wong' is Chinese, whatever first name he uses.

Pronounciation: Yes, those names are easier to pronounce (though of course as in any language there'll be some names that are more difficult than others) but furthemore, most English people with have been exposed to them before. There is cultural familiarity. The phonetic relationship between the languages also means there is less chance of a name coming out sounding strange to English ears. Try naming your daughter Fuk Mai and see how she gets on at school. Neither French, Russian, Norwegian or Japanese are similar languages to Chinese so I don't how you can use them to make a comparison. They are all 'foreign' but that's about it.

If I was in India, I would give my kids Chinese names as most Chinese parents do, and *if it was beneficial* I would either give them a local Indian name as well or let them to choose one when they grow up. The key is whether it is beneficial to them socially, educationally and professionally. Would there be a need to do this is India? Well I don't know, I've never lived there.

I'm not sure why we're even having this conversation. The fact that you continue to use a western name yourself says it all really. You are happy to exploit the benefits of using a western name yet you have a problem with other Chinese people doing the same. I hope it's not out of insecurity.

john_smith · Joined: 20 Nov 2003 Posts: 5

SP, I was thinking of not continuing to respond to this thread but after your last post, I felt I had to

First of all, I try and encourage my chinese friends to use my Chinese name. Also, I have known my closest
English friends for many years and they are free to call me by my Chinese name and they are certainly aware of it.
My English name was not of my choosing, it was given to me at birth and has been used ever since. It is not my fault, but it is now a part of my identity,
and my friends are free to call me by it. In fact when I went travelling on my own a few years ago, I introduced myself to other travellers using my Chinese name. There were one or two instances were I had to correct them
but I did not feel uncomfortable about doing so. In fact I was the one who had trouble pronouncing the names of all the German and Japanese travellers I have met. Names like Masahiro and Severaine do not roll off the tongue

You say that BBC's use their English names when talking to other BBC's in English, well why is it then that almost everyone in Hong Kong uses their English names even though they are speaking in Cantonese? Does Martin Lee, Emily Lau, Anson Chan and Donald Tsang speak english to each other? Or do their Chinese names hinder their political careers? I doubt it. If HK politicians can't give the example then how can we BBC's have pride in our language and culture. Can you anyone image President Vladmir Putin calling himself Dennis to make it easier for George W Bush? I think not.

You also mentioned that an English name brings many benefits, well lets see.

The former England cricket captain Nasser Hussain's name didn't prevent him from being England captain. What about that big ball game, what's the England manager's name? Ah, Sven-Goran Erikson. Now that's an interesting one. You mentioned that English find European names easier because they are more familiar with them. Well before St Sven the English have heard of few Swedish names, with only Bjorn the only one coming to mind.
Indeed, when Sven-Goran Erikson(SGE) first started as England coach all the TV football pundits referred to him as 'Mr Erikson'. Basically none of them knew how to pronounce Sven. Was Sen, Ven or sfen etc? Then after a few weeks in the job, there was a press conference and a brave reporter popped the question 'Mr Erikson - how do you pronounce your name?'. With a smile, rather than embarrassment SGE said 'Well you pronounce it as Z-ven Yoran Erikson'.
It was a relief for football fans and the press. They finally knew how to pronounce his name. There was never any question of SGE adopting an English name. Basically his attitude was 'Hey, this is my name and you'd better get it right'. Maybe if we used our Chinese names, and gave Chinese names to our kids, the English speaking world will become familar with them. This needs to be coupled with attitude of pride in our names and in our culture. Before SGE, few in the UK have heard of the name Sven before, let alone pronounce it correctly. I look forward to the day when names like Chi-Ying will be as normal to the English as Sven.

Unfortunately this is not the attitude most chinese people either here or in the Far East. I have young relatives who do not have English names but whenever they go back to HK to see relatives or meet new HK chinese, they are always asked 'Why don't you have an English name'. It seems the pressure to dilute our Chinese culture comes from within and that is very sad. Why should we give our kids chinese names when the England football coach and the England cricket captain don't have them?

It seems that our Chinese names are now a stigma, something that we rather our parents didn't give us.
I remember seeing in another thread that people in Singapore that people are changing their chinese names to English names by deed poll, that just sums the contempt our community has for our culture which dates back to 7,000 BC.

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