UK Identity Cards

Little_Firecracker · Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:11 pm Post subject: UK Identity Cards

Hi there,

Not sure if anyone's brought this up, but I was just wondering if you peeps think the trial will work, or if we even need a trial at all...
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sp · Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 218

I think it will help in tackling crime overall, if not terrorism specifically.
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lyllee · Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 12 Location: London

I think the trials will probably come out good, as the government is very keen to introduce them, they are bound to make the trials work!

ID cards could help to tackle crime and terroism, but they can be scary too. Not only may you be asked for your fingerprint details, DNA, NI details etc, but I think the government may introduce bugs to monitor people's movement: almost like a big brother state.

Also, ID cards can mean that someone could attempt to take your identity away from you simply because the computer records could be moderated by secret services or hackers.

Little_Firecracker · Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 1:26 am Post subject:

Yeah, I think we'll see the crime rate suddenly plummet with the intro of this ID thingy...I've seen it used with quite a lot of success in other countries...I'm not too worried about this whole big brother scenario taking place though, as it seems to be the workings of paranoia...I'm looking at the bigger picture, and the pros far outweight the cons.
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GweiLo · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 149

Maybe I am paranoid, but I don't automatically trust the state. It is easy to assume that because you are not a criminal then it does no harm for the state to gather and retain personal information about you, but it doesn't take too much imagination to see how things might change in the future.

Imagine, for example, had Germany had similar information on individuals in the 1930's, or indeed had Serbia had similar information more recently. OK, we assume that those things can't happen in a properly functioning democracy based on the rule of law. But our government have already aquired the power to imprison people without charge and they aquiesce in detaining prisoners in Guantanamo bay. Our laws now allow much easier extradition to places where you may not have the protections our laws provide. And anyone who imagines that they are entitled to know or challenge the information held about them should really look at the well documented activities of MI5 since the second world war.

There are recent cases of unauthorised access to information held on the police national computer, so it is pretty certain that the information they decide to hold will not be 100% secure. Do you want personal information on you being used by people and for purposes that you have not agreed to and that you have no control over?

I have no real problem with the idea of an identity card which is simply about identification, but it also seems clear that this proposal goes much farther than that and will eventually contain much more information that simply who you are.

It worries me.

Little_Firecracker · Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 12:24 pm Post subject:

Guest · Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 1:36 pm Post subject:

It's always sensible to undertake a trial, when these things cost so much to implement and recent history has enough examples of major project failure and if some people feel that the government 'are bound to make the trials work' then the results should be scrtunised in great detail as I'm sure they will.

I'd be surprised if we did see the 'Crime rate suddenly plummet' (LF) - are your comments based on what's happened in other countries? I would expect it to fall as it will make it things more difficult for the less sophisticated criminals, but no doubt your average international crime syndicate will eventually come up with a way of abusing the system - but I don't think that's an argument for saying that we shouldn't use it.

Let's face it, no system is perfect - human nature being what it is, I can guarantee that there will be a small minority who will try to use the system for personal gain, and some of them will be successful. Some of these people will be in privileged and trusted positions of power but again I don't think that says we shouldn't proceed with this.

It would seem that I don't have too much imagination as I can't see 'how things might change in the future' (GL). Some of the suggestions (bugs to monitor peoples movements, take your identity away from you) still belong, in my opinion, to the movie world (Enemy of the State, the Net etc.) these ideas are still a long way from the reality of today. What else will the identity card be used for, other than for identification?

I don't believe our government is getting more extreme, it's simply reacting to its environment, and I think that new laws such as 'the power to imprison people without charge' would have the support of the majority of the population.

It seems to me, that a lot of the argument against is more against the central storage of data and mass processing capability of that data, but I think that the introduction of technology is necessary to cope with the increasing levels of sophistication in crime today. (Ironically, I believe the most significant source of fraud with the use of credit cards concerns the carbon counterfoils that are discarded after use, although not always safely!).

I accept that the data included on ID cards (particularly DNA) will be very sensitive, and maybe in ways we can't yet imagine, but I just think that it will do more good than harm so I'm still in favour.

I hope my ID card has all of my personal data on it, and I can use it to avoid ever having to fill in any more application forms for the rest of my life!

Little_Firecracker · Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 1:53 pm Post subject:

My sentiments exactly...

I think I should have made it more clear that when I was talking about 'crime', I was referring to most petty crime (the rate of which is pretty high comparatively) cases in general being solved...including some murder/rape cases (where there is forensic evidence to go on) etc...It will make it a lot easier for the average law-breaking numpty to be tracked down and caught...Although I was referring to a few other countries where this has been sucessful, I'm also speaking from personal experience...er...obviously not from a criminal's point of view!!
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GweiLo · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 149

Peter,
I am not familiar with the films you mention, but I am aware for example that MI5 have held files on people who have committed no offence and who's only "crime" was not to agree with the goivernment of the day. There are documented cases of those people being refused jobs and losing jobs because of those files. Mainly these were members of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament or Trades Union Activists.

Bear in mind that becuse of the secrecy surounding these things we don't know what they are doing now and are unlikely to know for at least 30 years, if not longer. The only reason these cases have begun to come to light in the last 10 years or so has been the efluxtion of time.

I am not talking movie plots, but real cases involving real people and they are all in the public domain now.

I might be happier with the idea of ID cards if there was also a freedom of information Act allowing us to see and challenge what information is being held on us and what it is being used for.

Guest · Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 1:56 pm Post subject:

I agree that a freedom of Information Act is long overdue in this country, and I thought that this government had made reference to it on more than one occasion - but no doubt the secret services will still be a law unto themselves.

I accept that this system (like any other) will be open to abuse, but as the ID card should contain factual personal data (name, address?, face scan, iris scan, fingerprints, DNA?) this shouldn't be as sensitive as say membership of political organisations, subjective personal opinions, medical history, police reports etc.

I can't comment on the cases mentioned as I'm not familiar with the details (was MI5 operating legitimately? What information was being held about these individuals, was it incorrect and how was it mis-used?) and so I still find it difficult to draw a parallel with what went wrong there and this issue.

GweiLo · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 149

Peter,
At the moment the proposals are very vague. The government appear to have given up on the idea of a compulsory card and are intending to pursue the idea of a voluntary card.

However, the original proposals, and the ones that are likely to come back if the goverment can find support for a compulsory card, were for much more than a simple identity card.

I can't really comment on the precise dangers without knowing exactly what the proposals are.

I will see if I can find anything on the net about the activities of M15 and post a link.

lyllee · Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 12 Location: London

MI5 does have files on people who may be a danger to the government and that includes up and coming student leaders in National Union of Students. I know for a certain that they do this as it has been their normal procedure since Margeret Thatcher's reign.

I used to live in Denmark where ID cards are compulsory, and they contain your home address, birthdate, health insurance no. and personal number.

Denmark used to live safely with these ID cards until someone committed a major fraud. Apparently someone had stolen an ID card, and was impersonating the owner in order to obtain bank loans and credit to use. Worst of all, they were pretending to be that person when they got caught, and instigated a very large legal trial to prove who owned the ID. But the fraudster managed to escape liability when the autorities realised he had left the country with his real ID!

It was big news in Denmark, and I think I am justifiably paranoid about the state plus ID cards.

tenpence · Joined: 24 Feb 2003 Posts: 174

How exactly do you think that ID cards are going to help tackle crime and /or terrorism?

I might be missing the issue here, but I have to agree with the lib dem person who said "A piece of plastic will not stop a suicide bomber and illegal workers have documentation." Surely it would be better to use the money going into this to understand why these issues are happening?

If there was more money spent stopping the cause of the problem it would be more effective?

GweiLo · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 149

I can't find the cases I was thinking of, but here are some examples and sources for the type of thing that worries me.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/freedom/Story/0,2763,633740,00.html

http://www.davidbeaumont.btinternet.co.uk/msf/#mi5

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1219851,00.html

There is also a wealth of information on the proposed legislation at www.statewatch.org

particularly this article http://www.statewatch.org/news/2004/apr/18uk-id-cards.htm

They also go into some detail about the history of identity cards in the UK, which is interesting. see here. http://www.statewatch.org/news/2003/jul/26ukid.htm

GweiLo · Joined: 22 Feb 2004 Posts: 149

And if you want to see how we compare with the rest of the world on freedom of information UNESCO did a comparative study which can be found here.

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2004/jan/unesco-foi.pdf

The UK doesn't come out particularly well.

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