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Barack Obama, the precursor PDF Print E-mail
Viewpoints
Thursday, 06 November 2008

Like many people for their different reasons, I am also a captivated observer of the recent American presidential election.

The Obama effect will be felt variously according to the situation and the environment. For the Chinese community in Britain in particular, there are valuable lessons to learn and apply. As a community, the Chinese are I believe resourceful and successful but there is a now a growing perception that there is a void beyond material attainment.

In some circles, this sometimes intrudes into general conversation as a yearning to be taken more seriously and it betrays a sense of disappointment which is loosely referred to as a lack of respect. More outspoken individuals speak about their experiences of unfair treatment and downright racial prejudice.

The Black Americans individually and collectively have worked hard and patiently and today, the rise in their stature whatever the pundits might say has culminated in the election of Barack Obama as the next president of the United States of America. The process, however, has not been without confrontation and even violence. The Chinese Britons, on the other hand, need to approach any such aspiration rather differently. This is because of their considerably smaller numbers in an outwardly less pluralistic society where the 'old world' values are still largely dominant and intolerant of change.

In practical terms, this translates to a requirement for solidarity and leadership, not necessarily politically but certainly socially. The better the blending in with mainstream society in all its nuances, the more effective the positive transformation in standing becomes. To do that, we must have a unity of purpose and a determined sense of direction.

It may seem a tall order, but there are signs of the nascent desire to achieve a worthwhile goal. And the time is propitious.

Dr Teck Khong

 
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Dennis Tam - The colour of belief Posted 10:49 on 7 November 2008
I share the same sentiments on your views. I would love to believe that it was the fact that the world will be a better place when we all accept each other for the person we are, not the colour of the skin.

However, what the reports have stayed away from (quite rightly) is that the Kenyan father played no part on Obama's up-bringing. He was educated and brought up as a "white" man.

In later years, Obama has used his "slightly exotic" background, in order to gain the mass appeal to the ethnics and the blacks.

In my mind, it shows an excellent strategy, but I hold my reservations about the wider picture. It will be interesting to see how many black or ethnic faces appear in his "cabinet".

And this is I believe the problem we now face. We can pledge our sincere love for this country just like the next white man, but will he allow you to make that pledge?

He may take the prescriptions that you give him for his chest pains; but will he put the same trust in you to "manage" his country?

Maybe we need more of the "mixed race" child to infiltrate and reside in that inner sanctum?

I fear that you may be one of those front line soldiers that will have to make that The Great Push. Only then, we all have the chance to ride on your shirt tails and see the snowball effect.

Nonetheless, Obama has shown us all, how to make that first step in the right direction.
Anonymous Posted 12:15 on 7 November 2008
The most helpful insight into the Obama effect that is also a great source of comfort in the face of the usual presumed barriers is the way Barack Obama is able to gain the widest support irrespective of the colour of his audience.

Barack Obama is powerful man - powerful in his vision and powerful in communicating that vision.

When you consider what alternative is on offer, the contest is settled. As for taking the medicine, if my doctor can rescue me from certain death, I won't care one jot what his blooming colour is. It's a human fact.
anon Posted 21:06 on 7 November 2008
i think what obama has shown is that for an ethnic minority, like the chinese in the uk, to achieve success in politics, they have to reach out to the whole population on a post-racial platform. i'm not sure if we're quite there yet.
Primate Posted 21:48 on 7 November 2008
As the Chinese community is small, as soon a Chinese steps out to serve the wider community (eg, teacher, policeman, nurse, etc) isn't that by definition post-racial?

An Anglicised Chinese? We have lots of them and some are very capable intellectually too but whether any of them want a role in politics is another matter!
Edwina Lee Posted 1:22 on 9 November 2008
In politics, finding and acting on unity of purpose and determined sense of direction for british chinese requires a government position dedicated to that.

I suggest ministerial position(s) for ethnic affaires. e.g. Minister for British Chinese affaires.

Unity of Purpose: May be these
(1) Adaptation, assimulation and social contact;
(2) Keeping in touch with cultural/family roots and cultural identity;
(3) Removal of prejudices and media bias;
(4) Business & employment affaires;
(5) Political involvement, feedback etc.
. . .
Hot Chinese Chips - oldest institutions Posted 7:31 on 9 November 2008
I think it's unfair for British Chinese to start demanding Chinese 'things' from the government until they garner more respect to earn the trust of the British nation. British Chinese do not make enough percentage of tax payers to count, there are not enough Chinese in the British army, and many Chinese businesses do not create jobs that also benefit the Anglos.

Above all, a Chinese prime minister should not have a cultural bias towards her/his own race. They would have demonstrated their dedication and committment to England by having served as a British war hero, or whose father might have been.

So the first step to integrating the British Chinese more in the UK, is to get more Chinese to loyally sign up to the British army. Afterall, if a Chinese prime minister is to send troops to war and likely death, there needs to be a mutual trust and understanding.
Edwina Lee Posted 22:32 on 9 November 2008
We don't need to have a service profile similar to the native population in order to carve out our role in politics. We create roles suitable for our profiles.

There is immense potential to grow trade & friendships with China, & overseas chinese are in a unique position to form a bridge as we are bilingual & bi-cultural.

Chinese is also the most educated ethnic group in UK.

It is the exploitation of our potentials that our political involvement can contribute.
Hot Chinese Chips - Barack Obama... an example! Posted 8:53 on 10 November 2008
A quick search on wiki reveals that Barack Obama's grandfather served in the US army...

So if you would like your grandson to be the British prime minister oneday, sign up and serve your country!

As John F. Kennedy famously said, "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."

So Edwina, what do YOU do for your country?
Edwina Lee Posted 16:20 on 10 November 2008
My father was in the Hong Kong Police as an engineer, mother a prison probation officer before she retired. I was a corporal at school in the Combined Cadet Force. It would have been silly of me to join the army as it wasn't my strength, but I worked as an IT systems analyst.

I helped Labour in recruitment, fought internet battles for US Democrat. My strength is my intellect.
chinaman - tut Posted 16:27 on 10 November 2008
"greatest week in black history"
"civil war finally over"
"black man elected"

it's like all the barrios and ghettos are all gone already...

the greatest black man ever to hold state power is His Imperial Majesty, Haile Selassie I, King of Kings, Lord of Lords. Not this one who'll deport his own grandma and applauded the bombing of sarajevo.

Where did the democratic party's NEC tell you to "intervene" obama? Congo? Haiti? Pakistan? Do you think any of them will be happy to see your army?

The truth is that the wall street lot, the big industrialists want him in power, contrary to popular belief, the economy always grows when democrats are in power - it did the last 6 democratic presidents. Why? because they overspend - america doesnt tax enough to spend like it wants to on education, health and social care. so the powers that be got a "liberal" to run up the deficit a bit more, and make a killing.

People are talking about how he's healing divisions between dems and reps as well like its a one party state, proper jokes.
chinaman Posted 16:29 on 10 November 2008
Edwina, don't claim all of us to celebrate your personal success. I work in a chinese community centre and nearly all the clients are illiterate.
Edwina Lee Posted 17:17 on 10 November 2008
Chinaman,

I don't know whether to take you for real, but you talk just like a Republican Party Faithful munching sour grapes.
chinaman Posted 18:54 on 10 November 2008
I don't know whether to be baffled or offended. I'm a life long Labour supporter like yourself. I don't like choosing between the right or the far right.

All I was trying to say is that I'm wary of the recent celebrations, that's all. The world is full of problems that obama will not solve but everyone's going on like the age of aquarius has dawned. The happy consensus in all the big media from far right to liberal is frankly frightening, even al qaeda toned things down with him.
Edwina Lee Posted 19:31 on 10 November 2008
I'm glad you're helping in the Chinese Community Center.

I would say that Obama expections have been well managed by both the media and by his party.

The election of Obama to the presidency is indeed a significant change in America. His background is an advantage in bringing peace to the middle east, his support for science and biotech very sort after by the scientists. His stance on energy is a major shift from the Bush era. UK's former chief scientist David King said on BBC news that the Bush administration had wasted 8 years on tackling climate change. On domestic policy, he is dead right to prioritise on infrastructure maintenance neglected by Bush in order to budget for wars, and to spend £150 billion in the next 10 years to retool US car makers to produce fuel efficient cars and create green jobs.

Obama's appointment is change in itself about America. This detailed statistical analysis of Obama's votes tells the story beyond doubt:-
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/Polls.aspx?id=310636874878523

Follow this Dimsum discussion for more details:-
http://www.dimsum.co.uk/forum/community/topic-2171.html
medialies - Naivity Posted 1:04 on 5 December 2008
Edwina, its clear that you and a great many of your readers here have swallowed the corporate media line, hook line and sinker. Obama's appointment had nothing to do with issues you mentioned but all to do with personalities. Obama is NOT going to change the way the us does business in the middle east or the way it conducts is bully boy tactics in international affairs. Its view of the world will be the same and that is "either you are with us or against us" and its violent and non democratic ways will continue. Just because you put lipstick on a pig its still a pig to quote Obama himself.
Teck Khong - Present and Past Tense Posted 23:21 on 10 November 2008
The past tense of seek is sought.

Not sort!
Dennis Tam - Where you stand Posted 10:48 on 12 November 2008
To Edwina and to Chinaman,

I am glad to see that you both hold your views in this matter with such passion.

To those, I add one point. The Obama effect is not something we can just mirror and replicate. It is about evolution of the minds.

The current mindset is reluctant to believe that we can change. However, it is on the back of the belief that we CAN change and we must embrace it, that the status of the Chinese in Britain will move on.

Of course there are people who are illiterate and I deal with them in my role at work. However, many Chinese in the new generation can speak 3 or 4 languages. Many achieve top marks throughout the education system.

Across the spectrum of our population, there will be the successful businessmen and also the admin support. They are no more important than the other person when it comes to having that voice, that vote.

They can be the best sportsman or the IT intellect. Their voices (if they want to be heard) have the same rights to demand an audience from the Government.

You do not have to entice each other into their camp before the Chinese can be seen as equals.

As for joining the armed forces or not, that is not the answer to how grateful the nation should be to you.

There are plenty of Chinese people who serve in the main and auxiliary police forces, education, the health system (including our very own Dr Khong.) These are all services to the nation. Their contributions are no less important than the soldier fighting in Afghanistan.

Taking a "life imitating art" scenario, the people that created the chip to make the Terminator, were scientists that sit in front of a computer. You don't necessarily need a soldier to destroy the world.
Jazz - comments Posted 20:34 on 12 November 2008
I not sure whether there is a "unity of purpose" within the chinese community, if it has, what is it?
There had always been differences of upbringing, class and education who don't mix socially just like all cultures. I feel if the core values of equality/fairness/care etc in the existing admin, ARE put into effective practise then I don't have much to complain. Nor am I sure whether Chinese Brits like myself are in desperate need of an inspirational chinese leader. However It would be nice to see more accessible friendly chinese faces in high places.
My worst nightmare is that the more "naive" or less educated Chinese community gives power to someone who doesn't really care about Chinese Brits nor the wider community but is only in it for themselves.
Teck Khong Posted 1:03 on 13 November 2008
The issues of selfish and self-serving politicians do not belong to my discussion here. Neither do the negative attributes of envy and suspicion.

For members of organisations such as societies and churches, unity is not something emblazoned on their foreheads. Rotarians wear little roundels, born-again Christians display the fish symbol, and devout Islamic men wear beards and headgear.

So, when we meet one another and acknowledge common and shared interests, engaging and assisting with each other when the opportunity is appropriate, we are in fact displaying unity. Just as a VW Beetle ('Herbie') owner might wave to another as they pass each other, or two Sikhs greet shastri akal when they bump into each other on a Caledonian ferry at Ullapool, it would be reasonable if we as Chinese have such a sense of 'unity' and acknowledge each other in a similar warm manner.

That's one example of the building blocks of communal solidarity. When we start to feel this way in various aspects of our lives, we have a sense of unity.

Therefore when a young Chinese schoolboy is mugged on his way home from hockey practice at school and it's the tenth time that has happened on that route to other Chinese people and the police fail to take the necessary actions and precautions, if the Chinese collectively protest over this in a concerted fashion, then that is a clear indication of unity. And positive results are more likely when there is a strong voice; it would be remiss to leave such matters to work through conscience alone.

It may not even be over law and order issues. If there is now a preponderance of Chinese dying from XYZ disease where this has not been generally the case, a collective concern and motivation to initiate investigation, support services, etc, is again an indication of the maturity of kinship.

The Asians in Leicester have mobilised into their communities a huge amount of resources for the care of diabetes and coronary heart disease, two illnesses that show a high incidence amongst Asians.

Do we have similar solidarity to highlight problems peculiar to our genetic constitution and take the right course of action?

All this exhortation does not detract from advocating social cohesion in the grander scale of things and so it should never be – there are lots of Indians, Chinese and Malays who enjoy deeply loyal friendships that transcend the schisms of race and religion in Malaysia, just as there are close friendships in Britain between Chinese and other races on an individual basis.

But kindred affinity is unique in being emotionally uplifting and spiritually satisfying. And it can be nurtured for greater good too!
pensggs - Chinese community leadership Posted 1:30 on 13 November 2008
The question? Are they in the limelight for themselves or for us????

British Chinese whether British born or not deserved to be represented by someone capable of making in roads into the mind set of the present political decision makers.

Having expanded money and energy on helping the Chinese community using my limited resources and ability, I have at times been most disheartened by the attitude of some of those I served.

Having come into contact with many leaders of the Chinese community, I am also saddened by the 'hidden agenda' in the way they lead. The incestious attitude of a 'significant' Chinese community leadership is in itself a barrier to recruitment of 'idealist leaders' who are needed to create an ocean of change.

So, does it mean we just 'sit and whine' about the status quo? The answer is 'No'. Eash individual effort to change assumptions and perception is another step in the right direction.

Chinese needs to become leaders in the mainstream not just within the Chinese community. Focusing too much on our difference just make us less acceptable as mainstream community leaders.
Teck Khong - pensggs - Chinese community le Posted 2:28 on 13 November 2008
Bad experiences should not hinder us on the right path, and I am sorry you have had unpleasant ones.

I am of course in general agreement with your views.
Hot Chinese Chips - TECK KHONG Posted 9:23 on 13 November 2008
Firstly, I must say that I do respect Teck Khong for taking the initiative as a community leader and representative; I have always admired those who take the reigns to lead the brigade.

The problem I see with Chinese based on observation, rather than stereotypes, is that whether genetically or culturally, we're an anxious, impatient people and the nuances of etiquette and civility often escape us.

I feel that as my own generation gets older, that there will be much fewer wisemen then there were two generations ago. At all times, we should be conscious of our behaviour to others, because what good is a leader who has no self-control/discipline?

Pertaining to altruism - Most Chinese ARE out for themselves because they've been brought up by their parents to want to be 'successful' (in terms of material wealth). It's this insecurity that causes many Chinese to love boasting about how smart, wise or rich they are. It's the easiest thing for Chinese to criticize each other, but self-criticism is something that is hugely lacking in our society.

When we overcome these inherent issues of pride and paranoia, then we can start to open ourselves up to each other, and build a community that is not driven by insecurity.
pensggs - Yes, we can Posted 12:56 on 13 November 2008
Bad experience and good experience are part and parcel of taking on challenges.

In my limited way, I am changing assumptions and perceptions around me. One measure of success was when I was approached by couple of community leaders to train as a magistrate. However, I declined because it was not the right time at this point for me to serve the community.

If we as individuals engender respect by our conduct in the community we live in; then in our own individual way, we are changing perception and assumption. Every little effort counts.

Kinship goes beyond the colour of your skin. I feel a kinship when I see a person being bullied. I feel a kinship with most working mothers. I feel a kinship with many businesswomen. Kinship comes from having the same experience and understanding.

I feel a special kinship with Chinese people who uprooted themselves from the known to go into the unknown; handicapped by the inability to speak the language of the populous.

I feel most angry when I see a 'well equiped Chinese' using their skills to trod ( or benefit unfairly) on/from another Chinese without the skill to defend themselves.

I feel most angry when 'English speaking Chinese' working for the public service serving the Chinese community, do not do their duty. Instead they think that because they can be communicate in English, it makes them a class above the folks they served.

These 'sharks' and 'vultures' wtihin our mist should be hunted out of existence by ourselves. First we clean our own houses then we can point our fingers at those of our neighbours.

I 'raise my hat' to the unstinting work that are being carried out by many Chinese born without the 'recognition' of the Chinese community, or financial reward. These people will pave the way for all of us, like 'Obama' for all non-white ethnic minority in the USA.

Change will happen when the torrent from each individual becomes strong enough to break down the barrier in its way.
Anonymous Posted 21:52 on 13 November 2008
very good debate, its debates like these which help to clear the air and promote better understanding for all, the point is to keep communicating; then just maybe a whisper would be carried by a rightous wind and we can all sing Yes we can! I have HOPE.
Teck Khong - Sarah Yeh Posted 23:38 on 13 November 2008
In the bustle of posting here on Dim Sum, it is easy to forget one very important thing.

I am sure there are many posters here who would join me in a warm and sincere tribute to Sarah Yeh for her foresight in founding this website which has rapidly become a major magnet for fervent and open discussion on all matters relating to our uniqueness of being Chinese.

Congratulations, Sarah, and a very big thank you! And keep up the good work! I look forward to meeting you.
Hot Chinese Chips - Hooray Sarah! Posted 6:41 on 14 November 2008
Yes Teck, I'd like to join your tribute to Sarah Yeh!

This website is the best I've seen of its kind - very well organized and focused.

Congratulations Sarah, great job!! Thanks so much!
k - Thank You! Posted 20:28 on 14 November 2008
Yes I would endorse that! These discussions are becoming to have a real substance particularly from pensggs in this discussion who has stuck a nerve. I have also done some unpaid community work before, and there are some real unsung heroes.
I would like to thank all the contributors aswell who have bothered to write about the varied issues that I also been thinking about as a "BBC".
So a Big Thanks to the Editors and everyone who has taken the time to respond!
Although I admire alot of Obama's idealism, his humble journey etc and his capacity to move me when he speaks. I end with my favourite H. Clinton soundbite which reflects how I feel when I read the assorted voices from Dimsum; "Listening to you I found my voice"
(I also believe in big comebacks pensggs :) lots of respect).
medialies - Obama and Why we Wont have a C Posted 22:42 on 26 November 2008
Its interesting to see your posts here but lets be honest are you all so naive to believe that Obama is a new dawn? Like he said himself "You can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig!" and that goes for American imperialism too. Just because an African American heads the organisation it does not mean for one second things will change for the better. However back to my point, the reason there will not be a Chinese Obama in Britain is because you have to look at the way Chinese conduct themselves in the UK. We swear incessantly using the foulest of words everywhere we go from supermarkets to restaurants. We treat everyone we meet with suspicion and we have seperated ourselves from mainstream society totally unlike the black community who are frankly eons ahead of us. I work as a management consultant for one of the big five and I have a masters in international relations from LSE, I speak fluent Cantonese, Mandarin and English and I am NOT exaggerating when I say that often I am ashamed to be Chinese when i see the behaviour of other Chinese in public.
Teck Khong Posted 12:39 on 27 November 2008
In writing the article, I wanted to encourage those Chinese for whom home is Britain toward not only a political achievement but a deeper sense of belonging that, amongst other things, come with integration.

It is not intended to suggest in a narrow sense as has been misconstrued that there should be a future Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who is of Chinese extraction, although if and when that happens it would be truly momentous in the same way that Barack Obama has succeeded in America.

There seems to be an unjustifiable level of criticism of the Chinese race, and those who purport to be erudite and intellectual ought to refrain from believing that one swallow makes a summer, neither should they believe that a few uncouth Chinese is representative of the cultured and well educated multitude of Chinese people who go about their business unobtrusively.

When there is a strong and valid sense of self-respect and confidence will we begin to gain respect and move forward.
flik_8 - Ashamed of yourself? Posted 15:47 on 27 November 2008
Mr Management Consultant, is the glass half full or half empty? I am sure you can employ several diagnostic systems to tell me that...

And conclude with sacking the barman.

Do you swear incessantly? I haven't seen anyone contributing here swear...

Though languages are important, just because you speak them, do not make you that person.

I speak English, doesn't make me feel proud of the English football hooligans. I speak Cantonese, but it doesn't make me a local in Hong Kong. I too speak Mandarin, but I know very little about the real China. I speak French, but that doesn't make me a Francophone.

Are all the Germans proud of Hitler's legacy? Are the Japanese proud of their history from the late 1800s, early 1900s?

Of course there are people who do things that we are not proud of. We only hope that it is a minority and you yourself, fall into the category typical of the modern generation: well educated, multi-talented, professional.

Will you boycott the client dinner at one of the Ramsey's restaurants because your highly paid job expects you to entertain your clients in suitable surroundings...yet owned by a foul-mouthed love rat who can't keep his swear words and his manhood from popping out?

A man who swears so much that a country banned him from opening a restaurant?

I have seen plenty of black, white, brown teenagers putting their feet on the seats in trains and tubes; hoodies threatening some Pakistani shop owners, takeaways and cafes facing the abuse from racists etc.

Do I feel ashamed? Yes. Of course I do. I feel ashamed for humanity sake. A failed education system and a breakdown in social responsibilities.

How were you feeling when you saw the Beijing Olympics? How were you feeling when you looked at the medal tables?

I am not judging you for your comments, because I have been there. I probably dreamt of being the hero of a Hollywood movie; not the Chinese bloke with an ordinary life.

I hope you feel like this because you are a BBC, or maybe an immigrant from an early age, where you are becoming more of "a banana".

There's nothing wrong with being a banana. Modern culture is to mix and evolve. We are not farmers from a by-gone era.

There are things I am not particularly proud of for the Chinese, but I am not ashamed of being Chinese.

My son was born here, he feels as Chinese as much as I do. Not because I force him to be Chinese. He just found his own way to be Chinese. Doesn't stop him from mixing with other cultures and people.

Perhaps my suggestion is that you are in a position to pass on your education and experience to the next generation. You can be one of the role models for the Chinese community. You can make a difference, just like other fellow achievers who post on this and other similar sites.

I hope you get my point. It's down to you, not the people around you.
medialies Posted 0:34 on 4 December 2008
flik8, your comments about hollywood hero etc are particularly telling. my understanding of basic psychology tells me those words reflect a deep sense of self disappointment for you......

how did i feel when i saw the medal table? olympics in beijing? WOW, your words show everyone here you ARE a racist! Norman Tebbit said something like that in the 80's about british indians and he is a right wing bigot too.

its amazing how much we can garner from the words of others.
pensggs - Paper qualification Posted 23:59 on 27 November 2008
Teck Khong and Flik 8.

Congratulations, your words spelt 'cultured and well read '.

A paper qualification is just that 'a piece of paper that says you can regurgilate facts and assemble data in the required format to pass exams. It does not make you into an effective and successful person, nor give you a right to make judgement based upon assumptions of one's limited experience.

If a person cannot be comfortable being who they are, they become 'lost souls' without any anchor (roots). A tree without roots will die with the lightest of gale. A human being without roots is just as vulnerable.

An acid bath would not change a Chinese person into a White person.

If all Chinese gifted with the intelligence to achieve these paper qualifications and conduct themselves that they become leaders of the society they lived in, their life becomes a testimonial for all others to follow and to respect.

Instead of feeling ashame of your own kind, use your greater intelligence to bring them up to your level. Not everything Chinese or otherwise; gets the life opportunity to be a cultivated cultured person.

Education do not make you become a 'cultured person' with humanity.
Certainly paper qualifications do not. Neither does career success or monetary success.

Thus speaks a person whereby degree and qualifications were achieved many years after the work experience. Success did not come to me because of my paper qualifications. It might have helped but it did not stop me.

And I have to learn 'the foulest and most chauvinistic language and expressions ' of the fishmarket. This allows me to relate to their expectations of me when the evolution of their life did not allow them access to the finer command of even their own mother tongue. This does not mean I need to use their language tool to communicate with them.

Putting oneself on the 'pedestal' remove oneself from our fellow humans and limits one's ability to learn from others. Even a two year old toddler can teach me new ways of learning.

so heres to 'an open heart' and 'an open mind'.
medialies - reply to pensggs and flik 8 Posted 23:10 on 3 December 2008
well i seem to have hit a nerve with a few who cant seem to bring themselves to look at reality and call it for what it is.

first of all it does not matter whether i am a bbc or immigrant and rightly a paper qualification does not necessarily make you a "cultured person" but i see how pensggs are hypocritical in that you pay much respect to DR Teck Kong just because he is a DR. How does that tally up with your comments about paper qualifications?

back to flik8, I am slightly perplexed by your opening ie "is the glass half full blah blah"? what has that to do with anything i wrote? did you not understand my posting at all? i said clearly i was ashamed to be Chinese when i see the appalling behaviour of some Chinese NOT myself.

then i have to ask what was the comment about who is swearing here supposed to illustrate? that if the 7 people who have posted here have not swore in their replies is a good indicator that the Chinese race does not swear? i am afraid i prefer realworld events to your rather crude model. I happen to have extensive dealings with the Chinese community from HK to the UK at different levels in society and what amazes me is the consistent lack of "culture" from the client with $200m in liquid assets to the ordinary guy in the street. they ALL have a penchant for crass foul language.

i see nothing wrong in commenting truthfully about how ashamed i feel when i see the huge section of Chinese society be it in London, HK or Beijing who have so little respect for others and their racist views of foreigners and especially mainlanders not to mention Filipinos, yet still have the gall to say "gwailos" are all racist just tops it all off for me.

i know there are many good examples but to try to brush over the facts i have just written out of some misplaced patriotism is the most ignorantly niave behaviour i have seen in a long time.
medialies - Naive? Posted 11:06 on 5 December 2008
Perhaps you have missed MY point, Mr Management Consultant.

You are quick to use a broad brush to describe the large number of Chinese people who "disgust" you, because of their behaviour because of their ways.

My answer to that is, this happens every where, in every race and culture. This is not unique to the Chinese people. Certainly I have had a fair share of racial abuse, but it doesn't make me dislike all white or black people.

Equally, black people (which may be glamorized as gangsters who go round calling each other "dog" and refer to their women as "bitches"...then there are the whites who want to mimic them as a street cred thing.)

I am not disputing that many Chinese swear, but so do many whites, blacks and Indians. I am not suggesting that it is acceptable, but they are the ones who are more likely to be on tv, as well as in everyday life, from restaurants to supermarkets...as you put it.

My point to you is that patriotism does not mean I have to like everything about Chinese people. It is about me projecting me and be proud of me as a Chinese.

I am not so naive to corner only the whites can be racist. We use equally degrading terms about different races.

I am not so naive to believe that we can live in a world as United Colours of Benetton's ad describes.

My description of "half full" refers to you being of a better breed to use that talent to make the world a better place, for both the Chinese and others.

If you can see the problems, why not provide the solutions? If we simply give up on the Chinese race and accept the "what will be, will be," then how can the Chinese move on?

I am not trying to brush over the facts that there are "bad Chinese people", just like there are bad English people or Americans or any other races.

I don't think I provided you with a crude model. I simply suggest that you have to look at the world in a more forgiving light. I am not religious, but I accept that I am not perfect. I have to make amends and I believe you are a better man/woman if you can sit on a higher ground.

However, I fear that your own rejection of your race is perhaps a "head in the sand" approach, and future generations cannot learn from you if you have so much to offer.

I don't think Dr Khong suggests that he knows best, but he is trying to get other people to get involved to make a difference. That I respect. Not because he is a doctor or he is a qualified lawyer.

I WAS naive to think that the Hollywood hero was the way to be. Now, I realize that I just have to offer a bit of what I can. Little by little, from everyone, we can make a difference.

I am not suggesting that a Chinese will become the next British PM. That said, it does not hurt for more Chinese to be involved.
flik_8 - Oops Posted 17:09 on 5 December 2008
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your alias. I wrote the above...

Otherwise it looks like Medialies has syzophrenic tendencies.
Teck Khong Posted 18:56 on 5 December 2008
Sorry, the correct spelling is schizophrenic.
medialies - flik8 Posted 22:39 on 5 December 2008
Well in response to your posting about "whites and blacks" swearing just as much I would very much dispute that. I have rarely seen or met any "normal" white or black individual who would swear in an incessant manner but i see this everywhere i see Chinese from HK to London to NYC. They always use the Chinese trademark swearing of "f*ck your mothers p*****" and as for your suggestion of me using my "talent" to educate or improve others in the Chinese community, I think that is another naive sentiment on your part. I have spoken out on a number of occassions when I meet men who swear like this and guess what? I am verbally abused! when i was on the MTR train from HK International airport to the city centre a woman had to cover the ears of her young son because the guy behind her was swearing into his phone like there was no tomorrow and when i told him to quieten down the man offered to fight me when the train stopped!

I dont claim to be a "better person" than ordinary Chinese but I AM better that the people I am referring to and thats not because of my education but because of my sense of morality. Even if i was born a four legged animal I would still behave in a better manner than these people.

Its not my duty to teach these imbeciles and if they want to pass on this great tradition then let them screw up their next generation.

And just to clarify, I do NOT reject my own race as you put it but I AM ashamed to be Chinese when i see the behaviour of these people who clearly have no class. I am proud of my heritage but I am sufficiently confident of myself to say that I am not afraid to openly point out the wrongs I see in "my own people" and not try to stick my head in the sand and turn a blind eye just because they look the same as me.
pensggs - Expectation Posted 1:37 on 8 December 2008
Expects the worst and you will get the worst. This says much about your own attitude as much as the those you dislike.

Is Teck Khong a 'DR?'. Well I never!!! Sorry Dr Teck Khong, I forgot to mention your title in my last visit. Thank you, Medialies, for pulling me up on my disrespect of Dr Teck Khong. It is good of you to translate that to 'kow tow respect' on my behalf.

When someone introduces themselves with their qualification first, then, does it surprise them that their attitude strikes the wrong chord with those that crosses their path?

Medialies, do not project your 'obsession' with class and status onto me.

I have a problem. When someone waved their 'status' in front of me; and demand I respect them because of their title, I derive adverse pleasure provoking them.

Luckily, most successful people I have pleasure meeting hid their 'laurels' well. Real and great success teaches one real humility.

And Michael Winner is a jolly chap I enjoyed talking to before I found out that he was Michael Winner. Sorry, Mr Winner, I did not know you were that 'famous'. Next time, I will roll out the 'bloody' red carpet.

Oops, I forgot myself! Sorry! I should not have used such 'language'. I better learn 'how to curtsey' before you next visit. Anyway, I enjoyed and remembered a lovely jolly gentleman; unlike the one you project on the TV car advert. Gald that our path crossed.
medialies - Pensggs Posted 16:55 on 9 December 2008
I think you need to check your eyesight as well as your logic. This discussion title clearly states he is a DR but that is beside the point now as from your post right now it would seem your diatribe is arguably FOR Dr Teck Khong rather than me.

your words about "kow tow respect" and "deriving adverse pleasure" indicate that you have an inferiority complex, am I correct?

You see, you need to have a reasonably good memory and well constructed logic to enable a coherent debate to take place and its clear you have already forgotten what you had initially written, to which I replied.
medialies - Pensggs Posted 17:02 on 9 December 2008
"Expects the worst and you will get the worst. This says much about your own attitude as much as the those you dislike"

Please explain what that is supposed to mean? it seems you are probably quite similar to those who I discussed and find offensive. You are clearly making excuses for them. Can you explain how I am "expecting the worst" when i am merely observing the disgraceful behaviour i highlighted?

Again, you show a very poor grasp of logic and comprehension. My advice to you is to pay more attention and work harder.
Dennis Tam - "Don't judge a book Posted 19:44 on 9 December 2008
The phrase should perhaps be transposed to include, "Don't judge a man or a book by its title."

I have had the pleasure of meeting Dr Khong and I have to say, he didn't introduce himself as Dr Khong...just plain Teck.

However, I have also met people that have been knighted, and naturally, I referred to them as Sir so and so.

I don't think "Dr Khong" has any subliminal message to send out as "Dr", but I believe, if you have earned it, use it.

I have no problems calling Steve Redgrave, Sir Stephen...although it is his own choosing that people still calls him "Steve".

I don't feel subservient to anyone by addressing them with their title. Not even the Queen or the Prime Minister, but they do happen to live with their titles. Except royalties, they earned them, they deserve them.

As for Medialies, I don't know where you live and where you work, but I have been surrounded by whites and blacks (and alright, it might be in Camden Town or some other council area) where they use swearing as part of their everyday adjectives.

I have had youths as young as 12 questioning me, "Wot are you f*cking looking at?"

To be fair, I have been in plenty of social surroundings with a bunch of City boys who can swear like a trooper. I can assure you they are not Oriental.

So perhaps you are very well insulated from these incidents, but as I noticed above, someone has already mentioned Ramsey as an example.

If it were a white guy swearing non-stop on the tube and then challenge you to a fight, wouldn't you feel ashamed of his behaviour?

Therefore I suggest that this isn't about the race, but about their upbringing.

All these cases with Shannon Matthews and Baby P...wouldn't you feel disgusted and ashamed? How can any human do that? This isn't a race, but I am not suggesting there may be equally horrific stories in Asia. After all, the Chinese cockle picker stories from a few years ago, demonstrates exactly how the snake-heads take advantage of people of their own race. (No different from some Eastern Europeans who traffick girls for sex.)

I dare say, every race have the good and the bad. I would equally feel ashamed for some Chinese's behaviour, but equally, there are several non-Chinese who do exactly that.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Pensggs merely reflects that he/she is open-minded to look for the best in people. There's nothing wrong with that. Is there?

Medialies, if you are better morally, then you still have every reason to offer your "superiority" to help the less fortunate. I am not suggesting that they want your help, and certainly I wouldn't expect you to beg them to accept your help. However, your attitude of leaving these people where they are, will only breed a new virtual ghetto. Soon, they will run wild and destroy the neighourhood of tranquility that you clearly enjoy without them.

You can already see this sort of behaviour spilling out of the estates. More than 30 stabbings in a space of a year. And guess what colour most of them are?

They are not Chinese, I can assure you.

And these are the results of the "softly, softly" approach that the white Government has come up with!

If "Dr" Khong wants to encourage more people to take up this social cohesion, by helping to make our communities a better place, then why not?

Somebody has to start. Hopefully, Medialies, you will see the benefit in joining in at some stage.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to pick on you, but since you responded, I am just commenting on your thoughts.

As for Pensggs, I would question this: you might deliberately go against someone who mentions his title...what do you make of someone's job role?

Is a Management Consultant more important/significant than a nurse or a teacher, or a road sweeper?

Remember the days when the council's bin men went on strike? You wouldn't have half the hassle of a stinking bin if a Management Consultant calls in sick, would you?

No offence Medialies, all I am saying is everyone has the same voting right.
flik_8 - Schizo Posted 20:36 on 9 December 2008
For sure, thanks to the doctor for correcting my spelling...can't rely on spell checks.

Well clearly there is a passion to discuss amongst you people, so why not use that energy and direct it to the people that should listen to you?

Only yesterday, Jacqui Smith introduced a new measure to turf out your noisy, anti-social neighbour...no matter what colour they are.

It may bring about a sense of social responsibility between people. You may find that people will be better behaved.
medialies - Dennis Tam Posted 0:01 on 10 December 2008
It is not my intention to post here how superior i believe myself to be which I do NOT believe i have done. I specifically said that Chinese communities have this appalling custom of swearing in an incessant and totally uncalled for manner which is offensive to me and most other decent people. I work with City boys as you mentioned and i know full well how people from all walks of life and all races swear but i have NEVER seen any other community which has this tendency more than the Chinese and like i said, I have dealt with all sections of society in many different culture. I come from a very working class background and everyone who knows me from friends to clients all know I am immensely proud of it. Why should I waste my time trying to talk to those ignorami who offend me so much when they clearly have the sense to know whats right and wrong and chose to take the path of least resistance?

maybe it was a mistake to mention my job but it would seem that in our real world our job determines our status and the weight of our comments. i dont necessarily agree with this but that is the world we live in and any attempt to say otherwise is plain naivity. I can honestly say I dont judge people by their jobs or wealth and that is something I am proud of. My best friend works as an assistant in a well known supermarket and I have more regard for him and his honesty than I have for many who occupy positions of authority in society that I work with daily which is a very sad state of affairs but that is another discussion. I judge them by the content of their character and that is quite easily determined after some observation and conversation which is why i posted my original comments.

my point is if these people want to be such a bad example to their next generation then that is their perogative. i am not an example for anyone except my family and i say that not out of selfishness but life has taught me many things and one is dont try to offer help that has not been asked for as it is often thrown back in your face.
Pensggs - status & value Posted 2:25 on 10 December 2008
Medialies,

When a person goes around shouting about their qualification when it is not needed in the context of the subject insitu, then that is a sign of 'an inferiority complex'.

'Every action gets a reaction', Mr Management Consultant. Or has your management experience been in a test tube or a 'class room' or in the 'greenhouse environment of the City'.

Since qualification and success is so important, let me assure you that I am probably equal to you in paper qualifications and definitely more than equal to you in personal and professional achievements.

As 'logic and comprehension' as been my bread and butter; I would probably be dying of 'starvation' based upon your assumption.

Assume and you make an 'Ass of U & Me'. Hopefully in attaining your management qualification, you have come across this statement.

Answer to Dennis Tam

Qualifications and title has a place in society and in supporting personal and professional credibility when the 'needs' arise. Using these when the 'need' do not exist debase and blunt its impact.

I would respect a person for 'what he is' not 'who he is'. A 'dustbin collector' now called 'environmental technician' contribution is as 'relative' as that of a 'management consultant'. The management consultant's role would not exists if there were no 'products' or 'produce'.
In this, we are of the same wavelength.

Many of those I meet on a weekly, daily and periodic basis comes from the privileged echelon of society. Priviledged in terms of educational, financial and personal achievements.

My reaction to 'someone' waving a flag of their perceived status when there is 'no cause, need or reason' is a personal one. Qualification does not equal intelligence. Job role is the means of earning a living and has no relevance in the conduct of our personal life nor an indication of a 'successful life'.

In my life, my 'job roles' had been many. I do not identify myself on my 'job roles'. My professional qualifications are the tools of my 'job roles' and had been used when it was relevant to the 'job'.

When Dr. Teck Khong contribute his piece as a 'layperson', his contribution is a relevant as one from a 'dustbin man'. When Dr. Teck Khong contributes professionally in his discipline, then his contribution is being supported by his professional training and experience. That would be right, valid and relevant.

Thus speak a much priviledged individual in terms of life's opportunities, health, wealth and inherited personal abilities as well as being in the right place and the right time.

The ability to be open allows us to influence all those that we meet, even those that are not 'open' to us; as well as learn from all those we meet. Even a two year old child can teach us 'how to learn'.

So to be blunt, Mr Managemt Consultant, you just strike the 'wrong note' and make a 'clanger' as I am not the only one to find your attitude 'close minded' 'short sighted' and your qualification irrelevant in the context of your contribution.

Open your mind, open your heart and you might surprise yourself of the 'good' you can do for society in which you live and called your own.
medialies - Pensggs Posted 22:26 on 10 December 2008
Well, what a reply. Where do i start? you talked about assumption and "you make an 'Ass of U & Me'" and straight away contradict yourself with your comment immediately prior that "let me assure you that I am probably equal to you in paper qualifications and definitely more than equal to you in personal and professional achievements".......

You talked about someone who "goes around shouting about their qualification when it is not needed in the context of the subject insitu, then that is a sign of 'an inferiority complex'", again this is clearly a dig at Dr Khong right? It was he who put it at the beginning of his view point. I on the otherhand have already said that it was put at the end of my post to qualify, if you will, my comments because I happen to live in the real world and not the utopian state of dreamland you live in where you constantly harp on about "respecting a person for what he is blah blah". Its often those who have to make that statement who are in need of convincing themselves rather than others. I happen to know that in Chinese society its ALL about status and position and is something i find distasteful in the extreme but its clear that with this viewpoint having to start off with the fact that the contributer is a Dr made me play by the rules that were apparent to me.

you really need to up your game in this "debate" otherwise with every post you are just going to be ridiculed. Alas in this battle of wits, you turned up unarmed.
Pensggs - Self-consciousness Posted 3:58 on 11 December 2008
'Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country, let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind'. a quotation from international the Bahai' faith.

By the way I am not a follower, just an passer-by. There is much yet to learn.

A person who had stopped 'learning' from others is a 'living dead'.
pensggs - Teck's qualification Posted 11:06 on 11 December 2008
Medialies,

Dr. Teck Khong's contribution and views are relevant and valid, when he supported his views by identifying his qualification, title and experience.

Mr. Managment Consultant views of most Chinese being 'the most crass and uncivileed peoples on earth' is irrelevant to his qualification and only personal to himself.

Suggest you do your research before you try to suggest that I am having a dig at 'Dr Teck Khong'. Suggest you check out the website 'Visible Chinese'.

It is a good tactical move to divert my arrows from yourself to Dr Teck Khong. A good survival tool in the political world of the City, to create a diversion from oneself in a desperate attempt ot be the 'winner'.

I agree with you, my wits are off the mark. The target I was aiming at has an armour of 'dense' and 'inflexible' material and definitely the 'cell structure' is dead.

Did you say you are a Management Consultant? Now, what's the role of a Management Consultant? ??? A change agent??? A dinosaur coming alive probably has as much chance of success.

You win, Mr Management Consultant, you know you will always be the winner. It is important to you, let no one stand in the way. The End.
flik_8 - The fall of the Chinese Posted 11:58 on 11 December 2008
It is a sad affair to see quite obviously that there are two equally well educated people having "a war of words" here.

I for one, will not even attempt to argue with either of you, but I accept both of you have points you have made.

But if you look back 5000 years of Chinese history, the reason why we as Chinese has failed to keep up with our position as a leading civilization boils down to the lack of unity.

When Emperor Qin united China for the first time, the country went from strength to strength.

The Chinese diaspora has left that behind and preferred to "mind our own business."

I agree with you Medialies, you offer help when you are not asked, CAN end up being thrown back in your face....just as I have asked you to reconsider your position to help.

That said, more often than not, you are going to get that "thank you" that you may not have asked for, but richly deserved.

It is for the same reason that I sense Pensggs is trying to convince you that the cliche "It's better to give, than to receive" is so easily said, but difficult to live with.

To Pensggs, I understand your frustration. You are right, the qualification may offer support to the statements.

That said, it is also sad to dismiss a layman's view, if it could often have offer a new perspective in the old problems.

I don't believe any of us live in Utopia. However, I would like to ask Medialies, do you watch HK films or Western films? The argument of life imitating art, or art imitating life, has influenced and perpetuated people's behaviour.

Plenty of Western action films have excessively swearing and violence. Now, I see more and more HK films seem to follow the same line. In the old days, it may be just a few Triad films, which glamourize gangsters, but more and more, the concepts and themes have pushed society to the path that Medialies is objecting to.

Should we have a police state that controls every media? No, of course not, but at the same time, if you have a view to share, why not suggest it to the ones who can do something about it, rather than dismissing the option to help?

I am not asking you to go round to youth clubs to explain to the "end users" of these media, but perhaps to the top end, who has the ability to redirect the type of media that gets introduced to the youths of today and of the future.

I am just thinking aloud. Everyone has an opinion, but opinions are just words, unless someone tries to put it into action.
Dennis Tam - 'Every action gets a reac Posted 12:08 on 11 December 2008
Pensggs, that's a pretty good summary of Newton's 3rd Law.

To that end, Medialies is a useful entity for being opposite to your thinking.

After all, a Government without a good opposition will simply get complacent and probably lose direction.

Nothing wrong with opposing with the masses, if the end result is to see a genuine forward movement.

Not suggesting for one moment that we should all be thinking the same, doing the same, eat, drink, dress the same...that would be a boring world.

Medialies, the fact that you tried to quieten down a slob in the underground, shows that you do care.

One thing I do respect with the Americans, they are readily holding their hands on hearts to their flag. The Japanese always show a united front, (which I believe is the story behind miso soup -- can't be writing on Dim Sum without the mention of food.)

However the Brits can't even agree if they should pledge to the Queen or the country.

Being proud of being Chinese is certainly important for us. For us to willingly offer AND willingly accept each other's view and help, will give us the chance to gel and create a stronger movement for the future.
medialies - Pensggs Posted 15:37 on 11 December 2008
It would seem I have clearly hit a nerve here right? I did not understand most of you latest posting but i cant help but find it amusing to see you often contradict yourself with your own words.

take for instance your view on the inferiority complex that i raised in jest, you go straight on to contradict your own theory by telling all and sundry that you have much more personal achievements than I etc etc. i actually said in my post that I do NOT believe I have anything to teach others or that i am better than others except those i whom i was criticising.

you asked me what the role of a management consultant is and to that i can only wonder how such a question can be asked by someone who is clearly very intelligent...

your constant referal to proverbs and ancient sayings/quotes put you at risk of being seen as some stereotypical Chinese person we often cringe at when portrayed in movies. i was not, by the way, diverting your "arrows", I was merely pointing out your seeming inability to avoid shootig yourself in your foot before putting that said foot into your mouth.....again.
pensggs - Acceptance Posted 16:02 on 11 December 2008
Dennis Tam & flik 8

Points received and taken on board.

The cliche 'It is better to give than to recieve' is not one of my principle or my guiding light.

However, if we encounter 'fallacious statements' within our environment and do nothing about it, we lose the right to complain about the 'bad' society we live in.

The fact you want to give is not the same of 'willing to accept'. Often the receiver resents the giver because in taking they felt they were showing their weakness.

Giving is not hard when we have plenty to give. Asking for help is even harder because it is difficult to accept we are not in control.

Being controversial entails being prepared to take a 'rough' ride.

When I help others, I am actually also helping myself. Sometimes trying to help creates more problems for the person we are trying to help. Life is contradictary and contrary. There is no one solution and no one answer. Is your glass half empty or half full?

Saints in the wrong place and in the wrong time are considered 'sinners'. Sinners in the right place and at the right time becomes 'heroes'.

Myths of the heroes in the 'Water Margin' and 'Robin Hood' are law-breakers of their time.

Emperor Qin was the most hated person in China in his time and probably feared and hated by those he ruled over as Mugabe today. History is very forgiving.

The only way we live on after death is in the memories of those our life touches. By helping those that need our expertise most, we leave a deeper impression and creates a domino effect through the generations to come. That is our only legacy on Earth.

The idealist expatiate change and the realist expediate change. Both are as relevant for success.

Therefore, I hear your cries in the wilderness, Medialies; I do not accept your conclusion.
medialies - Debate Posted 18:32 on 11 December 2008
I would like to make it known that I am not here to antagonise anyone and my initial postings were to highlight uncomfortable truths about the Chinese community that I am a part of.

Dennis Tam, i understand what you are saying regarding patriotism but i am wise enough to know that patriotism IS the virtue of the vicious and that it is often used by those in power to achieve their own political ends or by those in everyday life to achieve their inward looking xenophobic ideals.

I am comfortable with who i am and my beliefs. I am a bbc and i am immensely proud of my heritage and will defend it against unfair criticism but i try my best to know where my own prejudices are and support criticism where it is due and China like all other countries is imperfect.

That said one thing I am particularly proud of China for is the fact that it is not afraid of America and that is why it is feared by the US. I dont say this because i am some patriotic Chinese guy and wants a "strong China" etc etc as that is a very shallow view of international politics. I am proud because it is one of the few remaining balancing powers in this increasingly unbalanced and unfair world.
Anonymous Posted 21:26 on 11 December 2008
What a entertaining discussion! Good exchange of opinions invented or not. Initially I thought it was a bit of a wind up going on, you can never tell, that's why I sometimes take things said with a pinch of salt.
Hot Chinese Chips - Chinese Democracy! Posted 16:29 on 19 December 2008
Chinese debate is something along the lines of... whoever can shout the loudest at the other person is the winner.

On the subject of inferiority complex: all Chinese people suffer an inferiority complex - that is why we must shout!
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