Interview with Martin Horwood, Libdem candidate
4 June 2001
By Jack Tan and David Suen

Dimsum: Why you got into politics?

Horwood: My first interest in politics came when I was in school, and I was interested in issues of human rights and internationalism, by which I meant not only international development in terms of the third world, but also even at that age, early European Union and the idea of changing the structures by which we're governed in order to create a more peaceful and democratic society.

Dimsum: And the issue of race; when did you first realise that was an issue at all?

Horwood: Well that was an early Liberal Party concern long before I was involved, and in fact if you go back to one of the last Liberal MPs for Westminster, John Stuart Mill in the 19th Century, he was actually taking up the case of asylum seekers in England and saying they should be treated humanely and that there should be a more welcoming reception for those who are fleeing persecution. The first Asian MP was elected in the 19th Century as a Liberal in Finchley Central, which later elected Mrs Thatcher I'm afraid, so the Liberal Party has a long tradition of regarding ethnic, race and human rights issues as very important.

It was the young Liberals that led the campaigns in the 60s against apartheid in South Africa which again was not a mainstream issue in those days. People forget how long the Tories in particular called Nelson Mandella a terrorist and refused to countenance discussing things with the ANC. The Liberal Party, I'm proud to say was always at the forefront of that campaign, and it remains an important part of the Liberal Democrat cause today.

Dimsum: How has being married to an Asian woman changed your perspective on the race issue?

Horwood: It has changed my perspective. It's partly because it's very different when you see the impact it has on someone individually. When racial abuse and racial terrorism is broadcast on the media, Shona does feel personally threatened, and it's the first time I've witnessed someone feeling that threatened at first hand. So it's made it more personal for me. And it's also partly through my work with Oxfam and for other international organisations that I just enjoy looking into other cultures and celebrating the difference and the fact that we should have diversity and tolerance in our society. That's why City and Westminster is a very good seat for me to stand in, I think.

Dimsum: When someone says "I'm British", what is that to you?

Horwood: One thing is that I read history at Oxford. History teaches you that there is no such thing as a pure British person, let alone a pure English person. There is a mixture of cultures in this island, and there always has been. Right from the Normans to the Danes to the Hugenots to the Irish to the Celts and the Anglo Saxons, there is an enormous mixture of cultures here and there always has been. And we've had a tradition of welcoming communities into our culture, learning from them, and letting them, I hope, learn from us at times. I'm the product of mixed backgrounds in that I've got welsh blood, and probably Irish blood and other mixtures as well, and there is no pure English nationality. John Townend is historically wrong. But also of course, he's acting in an inhumane and a very negative and harmful way because he's moving the debate in the direction of intolerance and hatred. That is something I would campaign against irrespective of the historical dimension.

Dimsum: So Britain is a 'mongrel race', but the idea of 'native' Britishness is very important to a large proportion of shall we say, white Britain. And it is real in their minds even if it is not real actually. How would you propose to challenge their need for a Britishness and yet balance that with anti-racism?

Horwood: I think you just have to take a relaxed attitude to the idea of nationality, and this fits in very such with our views on the levels at which government ought to be carried out.

We're essentially federalist. We're happy to see power exercised at a very local level: local communities, local neighbourhood councils. We're happy to see it exercised at regional levels: like London government, and also like Wales and Scotland and the regions of England. And we're happy to see it exercised at national level: Britain is a perfectly reasonable level at which national power can be exercised and a sense of Britishness is nothing damaging in that sense. We are also entirely happy with government being exercised at an international level: by the United Nations and international courts.

So you just have to be a little bit relaxed about your Britishness. Take pride in what's good about Britain and what we have to contribute to the mix, but not get hung up on Britain being the only level of sovereignty or the only level of government that really matters. Our European neighbours don't have these same hang-ups. The Italians and the Germans understand that nationality and belonging can happen at different levels. They can be a European and a Briton and an Italian and a member of an ethnic minority within each of those, and exist perfectly happily.

Dimsum: What do you know about the needs of the Chinese community?

Horwood: I'd say I'm learning. I wouldn't claim to know an enormous amount, because I haven't had a great amount of direct contact with the Chinese community. But during the course of this campaign I've come in touch with the London Chinatown Chinese Association, Chinese members of the Liberal Democrats and I'm learning fast about some of the issues in common with some of the other minority ethnic communities. These include issues like asylum, family reunion, an independent authority to look at police complaints, which is a Liberal Democrat policy, and also issues that just happen to be matters of concern to the Chinese community like the position of small businesses, which is of particular importance in central London. So I think I can say I'm learning, but obviously I have a lot to learn.

Dimsum: How would you address the issue of racial abuse experienced by Chinese catering establishments in Westminster?

Horwood: I don't understand it deeply so I would have to talk to those catering establishments first. We have to try and build a concensus as to how to go forward and try to tackle this issue. Better policing and more visible policing might be part of it, if it's done with the understanding and the cooperation of the Chinese community.

Dimsum: The main problem with racial abuse experienced by catering establishments has been how the police are not up to standard in their dealing with racial harassment. There is under-reported because Chinese take-aways don't have faith in the police, and there are a lot of good policies coming from the top, but at ground level, your ordinary bobby is feeling different. How would you propose to deal with that?

Horwood: The Met has a bit of a problem, and I think that the senior officers have long recognised this, and have been trying to do something about it. I do think that the Met is institutionally racist, by which I mean that you are more likely to behave in a racist fashion after you've joined it, than you were before you went in. Somehow that has to be tackled, perhaps through recruitment, and perhaps by engaging careers within the Met in a way that doesn't always expose people to the canteen culture that existing officers have. I've seen the Met's less favourable side, and it's not always a pretty sight. I think we have to work with the police and try to support the senior officers in what they're trying to do, but it's going to be a long and hard process. In a way the Met has taken the first step by recognising the problem.

Dimsum: How would you promote the idea of multicultural education with particular regard to the Chinese community?

Horwood: I think it's important that our education system supports the diversity that we believe in. It's slightly shocking that in Westminster so many of the schools require you to be either Christian or have Christian sponsors in order to get a place. I find that unacceptable, and I would work as an MP to try and change that situation over time, and provide either grant funding for schools which cater particularly to communities or, perhaps rather better, to make sure that the schools that we have are more open to people of different faiths and ethnic backgrounds. The current situation is not really acceptable.

Dimsum: In the light of what happened with the Dover 58, what is your policy as regards asylum seekers, particularly coming from China. What's do you think of the anti-asylum campaign being conducted by other parties, and the dispersal policy that's going on now?

Horwood: These are two fairly separate issues really. In terms of the exploitation of people who want to come here, I think the answer has to be the education of people in China, and trying to spread a message in China about how to go about seeking asylum and the dangers of using unorthodox. I know the Met have started to visit other countries, and I think it's right that they should do that. I think it's a policing issue, and the police should get in touch with people on the other end of the trail where the problem starts off.

In terms of the kind of campaign that's being conducted by the other parties, I think it's been moving in an extremely dangerous and unpleasant direction. Perhaps the Oldham riots may have made people stop and think about where that kind of language leads, and the kind of people that it encourages. Although I don't think there was a direct link between what the Conservatives were saying and what happened in Oldham, clearly any move in language to the right on the political spectrum just encourages the far right to think 'we've got to go a step further than that' and'what kind of trouble can we stir up?'

It shifts the whole debate and we've got to try and shift that debate back in the opposite direction and say that we welcome immigrants, and we welcome people who are seeking refuge from persecution. Immigrant communities have made enormous contributions to British life, and to central London life. When I addressed the Chinatown meeting, I gave the examples of Gordon Selfridge who founded Selfridges, who was an economic immigrant, and Isambard Kingdom Brunel, who designed Paddington Station, who was from a refugee family. Refugees and migrants have made an enormous contribution to our nation. We need to shift the language back, and talk about how to welcome these people, to be firm and fair in our asylum policy, and how to prioritise things like family reunion, and have a less racist and less discriminatory immigration policy as well.

Dimsum: Why then have the Liberal Democrats not come out in opposition to what the Tories have been saying?

Horwood: We have done. We absolutely have done. The Romsey by-election in the last parliament was a classic example of a community where asylum was a big issue, and the Tories thought they would gain by stirring up antagonism towards asylum seekers, making it an issue in the election campaign, and our candidate made a real point of opposing that and she won. We are quite happy to confront the Tories on this issue.

Dimsum: Finally, what do you reckon your chances are in the Westminster seat?

Horwood: If you were a bookie, you'd be unhappy if I won. A longer shot perhaps than some of the other candidates, but this is turning into a very strange election. The Tories are in the kind of downward spiral that the Labour Party was in in the 1980s, and that produced some spectacular Alliance victories. I think we might see some spectacular Liberal Democrat victories at this election, and I just hope I'm going to be one of those.