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Friday, 17 October 2008

And they lived happily ever after. The End.

I confess I’m a romantic. In my teens, I sneaked romances home from the library under the radar of my parents like they were contraband. My mother thought reading romantic novels was a distraction; I would be throwing away my studying and, therefore, my education – you see how her mind works.

I still believe in “They lived happily ever after,” despite the cynical swipes of life – the reality of terrible dates, heartbreak and failed relationships. Perhaps, because I did find my soul mate when I least expected it and after I crossed the threshold dreaded by British-born Chinese (BBC) women or rather their parents – their 30s. It’s as if in your 30s your parents suddenly wake up and panic because they have an “old maid” on their hands. In their thinking, no Chinese boy of good family will want to marry a woman of advanced years, who may not be able to give him a child (or in my case my mum never mentioned my real age!)

I wasn’t interested in marriage in my 20s; instead, I was absorbed in my career, buying my first flat in London, my social life, travel and new hobbies. In the background, an ever increasing line of questioning from parents, relatives and other interested parties or should I say nosy members of the Chinese community. “Have you met anyone?” and “When are you getting married?” were questions I constantly heard.

That was in the 1990s. What parental or community pressures confront today’s 30-something BBC woman, who may be dating? How does she feel about her single status? Do attitudes differ for the single BBC male?

But first, to put this subject into context, let’s look at the trends for single women (and men) in Hong Kong and China?

Hong Kong, where women outnumber men.

Hong Kong’s 2006 census shows there are 912 men for every 1,000 women. By 2036, the gap will widen to a ratio of 763:1,000. Given this statistic, you’d think that Hong Kong men would have a large pool of women to choose from in their marriage partners, but since 2001, there’s been an 80 percent increase in Hong Kong men choosing to marry mainland Chinese women.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/IH09Ad02.html

In 2006, 28,000 Hong Kong men married mainland women as opposed to 6,500 Hong Kong women choosing a mainland partner. This dispels the assumption that Hong Kong women would look to find partners in mainland China with the ratio of men to women there of 119:100.

Many Hong Kong women, who are financially independent, well educated and assertive, don’t consider marriage as economic security and may hold negative stereotypes about mainland men being patriarchal and traditional. The 2006 census shows that Hong Kong women are choosing to live independent lives with a 43.8 percent rise over five years of unmarried women living on their own – from 127,001 to 182,648.

Alongside Hong Kong’s highly educated women choosing not to get married, there’s also a preference for having few if any children, making Hong Kong the bottom of the world’s fertility league with a total fertility rate of 0.98. (2.1 is the “magic” number called the replacement rate for a developed country to maintain current population levels without putting a strain on national resources.)

China and Romantic Pragmatism.

Historically, Chinese parents actively sought to make matches for their children and young people rarely had the freedom to choose their own spouse. Today’s China is a very different place with changing attitudes to love, choice, dating, and marriage.

In a 2007 survey of 24,107 women aged between 25 to 35 conducted by Yueji.Self, a Chinese-language magazine, over 60 percent of mainland Chinese women reported that “self-fulfilment” made them happy – for many this means career advancement and financial security so they’re not dependent on men – as opposed to 22.5 percent, who said “love” was the main factor that made them happy.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-03/27/content_836867.htm

Another 2007 survey, this time of 200 people conducted by a Shanghai matchmaking website cited by the All-China Women’s Federation, showed about 56 percent of those surveyed said they wanted to remain single until they had found someone they desired and about half said they wanted to buy a place to live before they got married.

http://www.womenofchina.cn/Data_Research/Latest_Statistics/204833.jsp

In the same survey, 46 percent wanted to find love within their own social circle; 37 percent sought the help of social networking platforms and internet dating and their last choice, about 17 percent, was to ask their parents and relatives to be matchmaker.

It’s not surprising, with the Chinese social custom of introductions, young people are pragmatic about the rise of online dating; there’s no stigma attached to stating what you are looking for. Young people still listen to their parents’ advice on finding their future partners, but don’t want to discuss their relationships until they’re serious about someone.

However, parents are anxious about leaving it up to destiny or their children’s own efforts to find spouses. With the ratio of males to females being 119:100, parents are still matchmaking earnestly.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200606120034

In the words of Bridget Jones – Let’s talk to some BBC Singletons.

I talked to three 30-something BBC women – admittedly, it’s a small number and more views need to be garnered to get a bigger picture. Originally, I asked more to be interviewed, but they declined and those who were willing to speak wanted their names changed and family details omitted in case their relatives read my article. This tells me that the single status is still a sensitive issue in 2008.

Here are my thoughts on the context of being a single BBC. The British Chinese community is a relative young community with the bulk of immigrants, many of our parents, who arrived in the 1950s and 1960s from former British colonies. I know there have been new arrivals from mainland China and ethnic Chinese from other countries since the 1990s, but many BBCs are the children (and now grandchildren) of the majority Cantonese and Hakka speaking immigrants of the 50s and 60s.

Many of my parents’ generation are conservative and see their society through the lens of a patriarchal family, rather than wider British societal values (although, many now have become more modern over time). By patriarchal, I mean men being responsible for the public welfare and decisions of the family and women seen, if only on the outside, in more subservient roles as daughter, wife or mother.

As one of the first British-born children of those new arrivals in the 50s and 60s, I exceeded the expectations assigned to my role of daughter. I was the eldest, who was expected to help in the family restaurant, set an example and look after my younger siblings. Although, I was encouraged to study, it wasn’t necessary for me to go to university. It was more important for me to get a good job after my A-levels in an office or a bank and then get married to a nice Chinese boy of a good family and become a mother.

I exceeded expectations as one of the first in my extended family to go to university in the mid-1980s and, after graduating, to forge a trail in a professional career. However, like many of my peers, I often felt conflicted about being the dutiful daughter because family values clashed with personal fulfilment goals held up as ideals by wider British society.

BBC Women Speak their Minds.

I promised I would change names, hence, the three 30-something women, who live in the S.E., will be called Diane, Patricia and Lisa. They work in a variety of jobs ranging from retail to media. I want to thank them for their time and honest responses.

What pressures have you felt from your parents or Chinese community about being single?

Diane: “My parents only hope I can be happy. The outside world though seems to have pigeonholed me as an ‘untouchable’ because I’m at that age when I should be married with children. Therefore, as I’m not in a relationship at my age, it appears that something may be wrong with me.”

Patricia: “I never really felt any pressure from my parents that is, until I turned 30. The last couple of years, my parents (and grandparents) have been more direct about asking me if I’m seeing anyone and if not, why not. As for the wider Chinese community, I haven’t been aware of any social pressure. There are so many single ‘career women’ in Chinese countries that I don’t think it’s much of an issue.”

Lisa: “My parents do worry about me being unmarried at 31, since most women of my mother’s generation were just finishing having babies by this age! I’m fiercely private around other Chinese people as I find them judgmental.”

Is there a stigma attached to being a single Chinese woman in her 30s?

Diane: “It’s a status thing and affects family members who socialise within the Chinese community. It’s difficult for them to hear about their child/family member being slandered.”

Patricia: “Not so much stigma nowadays, maybe in the 60s and 70s. Women have generally become a more visible part of the workforce across many cultures and the strong, independent woman is more accepted these days.”

Lisa: “I think there is a stigma for many single BBC women, who want to meet future husbands. I’ve been to a few of those BBC pub meet ups and it always amuses me how the whole place is like a ‘meat market’.”

How do you feel about any pressures from parents or community and how do you deal with them?

Diane: “My parents are liberal in many aspects and now merely hope I’d get married. It’s painful how other people think about me. However, I don’t mix with the Chinese community (mainly because of their prejudices), but I do feel badly for my parents who socialise within the community.”

Patricia: “I usually fob off parents and family with how busy I am at work. Perceptions from the wider Chinese community only matter to me in so much as these may cause my parents or family any awkwardness.”

Lisa: “My parents are very traditional so I feel pressure to marry within the culture. But I think their expectations are unreasonable since they brought us to England in the first place, brought us up among virtually no other Chinese people, didn’t send us to Chinese school or expose us to the culture in any other way. I’m not part of a Chinese community so the only pressure I really feel or care about is that coming from my parents.”

Are Chinese women over 30 remaining single through choice or circumstance?

Diane: “We have higher expectations and desire different things to that of our grandmothers or mothers. We’ve seen many avenues through which we can venture. There aren’t as many restrictions for women in this day and age.”

Patricia: “I think through choice, though circumstance does play a part, especially living in a city, working late, etc. Most of us have been bought up with high standards and expectations so, like most women nowadays, we have high expectations for our partners in life.”

Lisa: “Overall, I have a strong sense of self and would never bow to peer, community or familial pressures, hence, the relationship choices I’ve made. To me, 30s is just an abstract.”

How are attitudes different toward single BBC males?

Diane: “Men have a higher status in the family and Chinese community as a whole. When young, they get away with a lot more than girls and this doesn’t appear to alter as they become older.”

Patricia: “They are given more leeway than single women to ‘settle down’. There’s an element of fear I’ve observed in parents not wanting to sour relations with sons so there’s more latitude in their line of questions and expectations.”

Lisa: “The double standard is what frustrates me the most – the way it’s fine for Chinese men to date around and sow their oats, yet the expectation for women is to be ‘pure’ until marriage.”

Speak your Mind.

Love and the Chinese woman – your thoughts are always welcome. What’s your story? Do you have similar views? Please share what’s comfortable for you below or email Susan direct at This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it

SUSAN S. CHEUNG

 
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James K. Li - Chinese relationships Posted 16:24 on 17 October 2008
The chinese in Britain are getting more diverse because of people from the mainland. Also it is a fact that the chinese have one of the highest rates of inter race marriages in this country. Meaning chinese women are married to a non chinese. Of course this would include chinese men that are married to non Chinese women also. If you do some research, you will realise the chinese population here is small. Estimated at only half a million. There is around a million polish here working. Most of us are in China (1.3 billion) I was shocked when I found out there was only over 3 million of chinese living in America. Considering there is a bigger chinese community over there. The U.S being such a large country than the U.K we must be a rare sight over there. O.k back to the topic of Chinese women and love. I think things are ok as they are, do we have a choice? The chinese women in the U.K will have western culture and will meet their love who will be either a chinese or from another ethnic group.
Susan S. Cheung - Chinese relationships Posted 4:37 on 20 October 2008
Dear James,

The last Census showed that Chinese in the UK number around 250,000, a very small percentage of the total population. When I was growing up in the UK in the 1980s, I was one of 150,000 so I felt very isolated.

In the US, unless you live in one of the main cities with larger Chinese populations, such as San Francisco and New York, Chinese are a tiny minority of the populations in the smaller cities and towns, especially in the interior regions. For example, in my new home town of three months, Nashville, Tennessee, there are only 2.38 percent of Asians in the area’s population of which 0.35 percent are Chinese according to the 2000 Census.

I agree, we have become more diverse in the UK. Just looking at my family in the UK alone - two of my siblings are with non Chinese and likewise many of my cousins, but also equal numbers are with other BBCs or Hong Kong or mainland China born Chinese. It's up to the individual and we always have a choice, and mostly parents have come to accept the situation. This means our generations are more integrated into the mainstream society.

Thanks for your comments.
Ruby - Why do birds suddenly appear? Posted 19:59 on 17 October 2008
Not if anyone seen Gok Wan's TV fashion series, I not his agent I promise, but the standard self-help fundamentals are there albeit slightly simplified for the popular masses.
I think if you love and embrace life itself and meet alot of people, "luurrve" comes as always unexpected, its a cliche that it more otfen than not true.
Anyway romantic love is not the be all and end all of life; its only the early stages that are magical, then its back to reality again and the dayjob...
Susan S. Cheung - Why do birds suddenly appear? Posted 4:47 on 20 October 2008
Dear Ruby,

My parents played that song of your subject title and I remember singing it when I was young!

I agree, if you embrace life and embrace yourself, you attract good people and opportunities into your life.

I also agree, we can be fooled by romantic love; the first flush fades and a deeper love develops, but you have to work at it like anything worth keeping.

Trust me, after 10 years of marriage and two children, I can honestly say my marriage has gotten stronger because we work hard at it, accept each other's flaws and develop together. We never take each other for granted and give each other space to be ourselves.

Thanks for your words of wisdom.
Alice - Love and the Chinese Woman Posted 9:58 on 20 October 2008
Dear Susan,

Thank you for this article. I enjoy much and makes me seem "not so alone."

I am what is call in China "a Leftover woman" and I find the answers of your three women so true to my situation.

I have researched this myself and found situation is very similar to "mature Women" of Jewish or Japanese backgound. So I think is not just a "Chinese Thing."

Zhu Hao,

Alice
Susan S. Cheung - Love and the Chinese woman Posted 15:10 on 20 October 2008
Dear Alice,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

I agree the situation is common to many women regardless of culture.

There is still societal expectation that people get married and have children, and ideally at a certain stage in life.

The facts show, however, that many women are choosing to marry later in life, if at all and that goes for having children too.
Karen Posted 18:13 on 20 October 2008
Once again, a very interesting article, Shifay! I am not Chinese or British, but it is interesting that there are many similarities between my background and yours. I too used to have to hide "romantic" novels in my teens because my mother would not let me read them. When I broke up with my boyfriend of 3 years my mother responded with "I hope you're not going to end up an old maid" (I was 21 at the time). Even though the 1980's in America were a time when women were starting to choose to marry later and focus on their careers, I always felt like I was in a waiting game, waiting for Mr. Right, waiting to get married and have children. I chose to focus on enjoying life and having fun in my 20's, and didn't get married until I was 29. So to all the women out there, Chinese or British or wherever in the world you're from, enjoy life and don't worry about what anyone else thinks!
Susan S. Cheung Posted 18:55 on 20 October 2008
Karen,

I'm convinced we're not so different wherever we live and women have read romantic novels as a means of escapism and fantasy for generations. I know a popular publisher I read were the Mills and Boon's novels and they are a 100 years old this year as a publishing house.

My 20s were a turbulent time in many ways as I was figuring out who I was and what I wanted. They were also a fun time and I wouldn't have changed it any other way.

I agree, go out and enjoy your life whatever your age and if you like who you are and feel good about yourself, you will bring good things into your life - it's the law of attraction!

Thanks for sharing your memories and your thoughts.
Kickass - Confuse Posted 21:14 on 20 October 2008
I have seen the following kind of chinese woman
The fit bird, you see them swimming in the sea.
The international traveller, she belongs with the jet and stay in the best hotels.
The sister, she samples all the food and gives you the best bit to eat.
The keeper, she guards and survey all in her sight and bestow blessing on those she deem worthy.
Great article.
Susan S. Cheung - Confuse Posted 14:21 on 21 October 2008
Kickass,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

As you suggest in your words, despite common stereotypes of Chinese women, you can't put the modern Chinese woman in a box or generalize about us. Each of us is a product of our unique environment, circumstance and personality.
pensggs - Love, marriage, female and Chi Posted 21:21 on 20 October 2008
Suaan, I have enjoyed your article and your views. You and I shared the same fights for identity, values, romanticism, and typically Chinese, strong family loyalty ethos but from different decades.

To the Elvis croning of 'Love me tender, love me true'; I chose to marry my first love at 18. By the 20s, when human frailities, economic reality, and past ghosts from parenting pasts dictated the marital paths ahead, the only sustaining strength can only come from yourself.

When I met my present husband, I was 18 and he was 23 Both of us being westernised Chinese. We married within four months of meeting. Our marriage sustained and maintained for 36 years. We are now in the process of divorcing. Is the marriage a success? Yes, it is. From this marriage, two successful well adjusted children emerged. I could not regret them. Was there any guarantee for 'being happy ever after'. Yes, happiness comes from yourself not dependent on others.

so, what is my view of marriage and the Chinese women? In my sisterhood, two from my birthfamily and seven from my own choosing, love and marriage had not been the only option to happiness and fulfulment of self.

Birth sister 1; chosen path, career first, boyfriends and singlely self sufficient. Dined in the most expensive restaurants, branded goods and a full time of self development. No regrets on early death.

Birth sister 2, chosen path, career and celibracy. No accountability to anyone but herself and birth family. Full self development in career and self fulfilment.

Chosen sister 1; Married 30 years to a university educated Chinese, with one son. Extremely successful careerwise. ? Successful marriage? I have yet to ask her.

Chosen sister 2, Single. Not career orientated. Takes life as it comes. ? Happy? I have yet to ask her.

Chosen sister 3, Divorced after 15 years of marriage. Chosen path; a dutiful wife and mother. It was not to be. The husband did not have the same family ethos, commitment or loyalty.

Chosen sister 4, Married to a white British. Chosen path, being wife and mother. Now widowed and her life revolves round her children and grand children and her circle of friends.

Chosen sister 5, Married to a white British and divorced within ten years because of the husband infidility. Traditionally Chinese as to regards to marriage. Complete devotion to her two sons of the marriage and her own birth family. Was equal partner to the husband in terms of income generation. Was she happy? Yes, one of the happiest person I have met and known.

Chosen sister 6; Married for over 20 years to a Chinese, recently divorced with one daughter. The divorce, her choice once her daughter became of age and independent. Career focused due to being married to a self indulgent traditionally Chinese male. Is she happy? Yes, she is embracing happiness now with both arms.

Chosen sister 7; Married for over 25 years in a celibrate marriage to a non Chinese. Dutifully wife and mother, very family focused. Is she happy? In a way, 'Yes'; there is contentment, loyalty, care and common ground.

Chosen sister 8; Married for over 25 years to a Chinese male in the Far East with two chldren. She gave up a successful career to become the traditional wife and mother. Husband has another family alongside hers. Is she happy? No, she is not. However, she is still in that marriage.

Chosen sister 9, Married over 25 years with three children. Dutiful mother, wife and business partner. Is she happy? To a certain degree, yes. The family is important to both partners regardless of their own feelings. ??A compromise???

Chosen sister 10, Single but by choice. Successful career and fulfilled life socially and personally. Is she happy? Most of the time, yes. Acceptance is a great companion.

So, what is my views? It remains open. I am continuing to learn to steer my life journey with no preconceived, regimented and inflexible attitude. When one door closes, another will open. The journey is still in front.

The one thing I have learnt. Happiness comes from within, no one can make you happy if you cannot let go of your unhappy past experiences. An unhappy childhood can cause misery to all those around you.
Susan S. Cheung - Love, marriage, female and Chi Posted 14:46 on 21 October 2008
Pensggs,

Thanks for sharing your memories, experiences, thoughts and wisdom.

I absolutely agree that happiness comes from yourself, from within, and no one can make you happy, if you can't let go of unhappy past experiences. I have seen that with myself and friends when we repeat the same patterns that invariably make us miserable.

From your descriptions, it's clear that each of us have to find our own path to our version of happiness (be that marriage or not) and if it doesn't work out, then we have to find the courage to move on with our lives, painful though it may be. We can't judge each person's decision as right or wrong as we can't get into their skin and see their life through their eyes.

All I can do is fight hard to make things work for me and my situation at this moment in time.
Anonymous Posted 21:31 on 20 October 2008
Good marriages are so rare these days, you should count yourself very lucky to be in a happy lasting one, divorce and secret affairs are majority in my immediate social circles.
pensggs - Divorce and Secret affairs Posted 22:03 on 20 October 2008
Anonymous

Unless you are in the bed with a married couple, you would not know whether a lasting marriage is a good marriage. Within my family circle, I have experience of two marriages ( beside my own), which to the outsider looked like a 'good lasting' marriages.

Marriage 1; Lasting 56 years. Traditionally Chinese and still married.
Is it a good marriage? Yes, a well adjusted strongly loyal family emerged from this union. Personally to both parties at this point, the answer is 'No'. The disease of the mind of one party has now caused the demise of this marriage.

Marriage 2; Lasting 38 years. A White Female and A Chinese male. To everyone looking in, a good marriage with devoted wife and husband. To those that know, the husband seek his marital acts outside the marriage, using prostitutes and the wife is sstill being treated for depression. Is this a good marriage in Chinese terms? I suppose the answer is yes, both parties in this marriage is still married.

Luck has nothing to do with 'good marriages'. For a marriage to last, it calls for a lot of compromise, sacrifice , acceptance and the ability to make yourself happy whatever the situation and whatever the circumstances surrounding you.

Divorce can be a 'new' beginning.
Susan S. Cheung - Marriage, divorce and secret a Posted 15:00 on 21 October 2008
Dear Anonymous and Pensggs,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the state of marriage and life.

From my perspective, marriage is not the simple forever after. In fact, though I am a romantic and can fantasize about riding off into the sunset with Prince Charming, I live in the real world and marriage and life can be messy and complicated, and divorce is very much part of that mix.

Pensggs is right in that you don't know whether a lasting marriage is a good marriage. I know I am happy at the moment, but, as Pensggs suggests, we do have to compromise, make choices, accept each other's flaws, and I can't depend on my husband to save me and make me happy, that's very much up to me.
Anonymous Posted 23:04 on 21 October 2008
I am a chinese male and i can tell u one thing that i am not sowing any oats in this foreign country. However, chinese women have the advantage of breeding and integrating sexually with the white male population.

White men date chinese women
White men date black women
White women date black men
White women date indian men
Black women date white men
Chinese women date indian men
Indian men date white women
White men date indian women

Chinese men just die!
Susan S. Cheung Posted 0:52 on 22 October 2008
Anonymous,

From your comments, you are either very cynical/sarcastic or have had bad luck in relationships and I'm not one to judge. I don't think you can generalize about Chinese women or men.

I have male relatives with white partners and I also have relatives with Chinese partners. It's all down to choice and that mysterious thing called attraction and, hopefully, leads to love.
anon Posted 21:59 on 22 October 2008
My few pennies worth, I recall some eastern buddhist stuff I read in the past, that desire is the cause of suffering, that desire is always temporary and can never be replenished; according to Buddhist wisdom one has to let go of desire and change this mind set by meditating out of this clutter into a simple compassionate living. The strange thing once you know life is in the end is meaningless, there is a calm acceptance, and then you can move on. Letting go is one of the hardest lessons to learn in life.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 22:20 on 22 October 2008
Dear anon,

Thanks for sharing your words of wisdom.

I think letting go of emotions and ego and past hurts is hard for most people. Once you let go of the pain, you can move on. Desire is only one facet of love; the rest is the everyday living that takes time, effort, energy, being present, compromise, acceptance, sacrifice, disagreements and communication.
Reba - single Chinese women Posted 22:00 on 22 October 2008
What pressures have you felt from your parents or Chinese community about being single?

I have attracted negative comments from friends about be unmarried at 39. I'm very private with Chinese people as I find them nosy about this.

Is there a stigma attached to being a single Chinese woman in her 30s?

It’s definitely a status thing and affects friends in Chinese society. It’s difficult for them to understand as family is everything. I think it’s a big stigma for many single Chinese women. I don’t like dating clubs and meet ups as there are many predatory men there. Fortunately, in the arts, it’s acceptable to be seen as "gay" so sometimes I pretend I’m gay.

How do you feel about any pressures from parents or community and how do you deal with them?

In the UK, I’m hurt over how other people think about me. It hurts that it’s only acceptable for me to be seen as gay. In China, I use the story of a boyfriend whom I’ve lost touch with and now he is married in a remote village. This story is sort of true and is acceptable.

Are Chinese women over 30 remaining single through choice or circumstance?

Definitely our expectations and circumstances are different to that of our parents. I have high expectations for a partner and that’s difficult for parents to understand. Mine is the first Chinese generation to leave China because of our dreams and not economics. I don’t feel age is so important now, except for having children.

How are attitudes different toward single Chinese males?

Sons have a higher status in China’s society than daughters. This gets worse as they get older. A son is the hope of the family and they get more freedom. What annoys me the most is it’s ok for Chinese men to date around, even with other races, and yet Chinese woman are seen as a "race traitor" if she dates even the most respectable Caucasian. Yet, a Chinese man would be applauded for dating a Caucasian woman. I often hear Chinese men talk about how much they desire Caucasian women with "generous" figure and this make me feel sad and sub-standard.
Susan S. Cheung - single Chinese women Posted 0:32 on 23 October 2008
Reba,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences, painful though some of them are. I'm sure many women can identify with your hurt.

Thank you for your insights into mainland Chinese culture and the differences in the status of men and women. I am writing from the perspective of a BBC because that is my experience so it's invaluable to have another perspective and different insights.

I think it's brave of you and some of your peers to leave China to come and settle in another country, much like it was for my parents.

I think although it's probably easier to pretend you are gay to stop the questioning, perhaps you need to say you are okay with your situation as a single woman.

I may be accused of being a married woman and what do I know? But I can identify with the mixed emotions of being single when society has different expectations. I was single/not married for all my 20s and early 30s and I had my share of nosy questions and hurtful comments. Only when I was okay with myself, proud of what I had achieved and knew that only I could make myself happy, no one was coming to save me, did love come into my life. However, I am never one to judge and only you can decide how you see life and what you want out of life.

I wish you all the very best and thanks for sharing again.
pensggs - Life Posted 12:17 on 23 October 2008
Love is part of life.

The reason religion has such a grasp on life is becauce in surviving, there are the good, bad and the ugly. It is the desire for 'Good' that religion first come into being. However, it is the bad and ugly that today had used the 'Good' for self profiteering and self satisfaction of 'Righteous Ego'.

I arrived in Uk as a naive, innocent and self indulgent teenager. My family upbringing and my ability to continue to learn and develop make me 'what I am today'. Adversity builds character. The strength of character comes from knowing who you are, your own strengths and weaknesses and the ability to evolve. Evolution is not 'changing yourself' but a strenghtening of yourself with the 'Good' and the ability to deal with the 'Bad' and 'Ugly'.

My ultimate goal is ' On my last breath, if I ask myself 'Whether I have regrets?' and the answer should be 'No'.

You make and take your choices, 'Right' or 'Wrong' they are your choices. If it was wrong, acknowledged that and move on. If it was 'Right', learn from it and use this as a stepping stone to strength your ability to make 'Right Choices'.

Holding on to 'Negative Pasts' is self destructive and harms all those that we love. 'Positive Attitude' expands your horizons and disarm the harm of the 'Negativity' that passes that brushes against you on your life journey.

Hers speaks a person still infused with the passion for life experiences yet to come. Open your arms and embrace life and LIFE will embrace you in return.
Susan S. Cheung - Life Posted 3:48 on 24 October 2008
Hi pensggs,

Thanks for sharing more of your life's valuable lessons.

One thing I could share is that there is no good coming from looking back at your choices and saying "I wish I had..." That only leads to regret and can make you bitter, and invariably what's done is done and you can't change anything. You can only react to your decisions at this moment in time.
tim Posted 22:05 on 23 October 2008
As a Chinese male in UK, I enjoyed reading these insightful comments, particularly by all the female observations, who are more emotionally intelligent than most men; it confirms that we are all feeling humans’ not cold indifferent robots. I also wish to apologise behalf of all those silly men unaware what they are doing, particularly some of the patriarch chinese customs experienced here that is out of synch in these contemporary times. There are things in Chinese culture that I am not very proud of that is one of them. I agree with the philosophy of affirming and saying "yes!" to life, it's also a very attractive quality that inspires hope and positivity; an enthusiastic happy person is so infectious, makes you love life and gives a spring in your step. Anyway enough of my ramble; Peace with you all lovely Chinese people, wherever you are.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 3:56 on 24 October 2008
Hi Tim,

Thanks for the modern Chinese male perspective. It's good that we can have these discussions and good that in the 21st Century more Chinese men and men in general are being more empathetic and not afraid to discuss their emotions and communicate.

You're certainly not to blame for the role that Chinese society assigns to you, but it's good that you as a male acknowledge the oftentimes different status, perceptions and treatment of Chinese females.

Thanks for sharing your views.
N - What does it mean to be Chines Posted 13:55 on 27 October 2008
Hi there,
Interesting article. I don't think the issues describe are particular to the Chinese community - there is pressure to get married by 30 (or so) in the white community as well.

I can see things from a number of perspectives as I look Chinese (I am adopted) but I grew up in a white British family. My parents don't sound that much different from yours! :)

The inter-racial relationships thing is interesting to me, as I am engaged to a white man. Most of my past relationships have been with white British men. I don't think this was a conscious choice - I just don't see race as over-ridingly important when choosing a partner, and the majority of men I have met have been white. When I was single, I wouldn't have avoided Chinese men for any reason. However I was brought up 'British' in a British English-speaking environment so it was most likely that I would end up with a Brit.

To be honest, I have hardly met any Chinese men. The places I have lived in the UK have not been very diverse, and when I lived overseas, there were not many Chinese about - I am used to being different. So I think it is more about the scarcity of Chinese people outside of China than any direct choice on Chinese women's part. Also - I would never be attracted to someone purely because of their race, so as I mentioned earlier, I've tended to meet more non-Chinese people than Chinese and have ended up having relationships with them.

I do think that it may be difficult for Chinese men in the British culture - most women associate manliness with being tall, and they tend to be shorter than men of other races! I think more people are probably attracted to the idea of Chinese women than the idea of Chinese men (I could be wrong but I only know one couple that is white female/Chinese male, but quite a few the other way round). I don't think they have that association with 'exoticism' and attractiveness that Chinese women do (I'm not saying it's right - I'm just saying in my experience that a lot of western men find the idea of Chinese women attractive). I think it really depends on your culture though. I have never been integrated in the British Chinese community because my parents aren't Chinese. I guess I'm an outsider looking in, even though I look Chinese.
Susan S. Cheung. - What does it mean to be Chines Posted 14:18 on 28 October 2008
Dear N,

Thank you for sharing your experiences and views.

I agree that this issue is not exclusive to the Chinese community. There are always expectations about marriage and children, especially the role of women, balancing work/life and career, biological clock and choosing not to have children or the institution of marriage.

I have written about the topic of inter-racial relationships and relationships within one's own culture. See this link:

http://www.dimsum.co.uk/features/whats-all-the-fuss.html

I think you bring up an interesting point as you were adopted by an English family and therefore your identity and world view is British. I am beginning to meet other people in your situation and they also tell me though they look Chinese, they feel like outsiders looking into the British Chinese community.

Many BBCs also are conflicted about their identities trying to reconcile their family values and expectations with personal goals and desires influenced by their British upbringing, and this includes whom they date and marry.

I think Chinese can't be lumped into a box and there are as many differences, life experiences, cultural customs and world views as there might be some commonalities.
chinaman - yeahbutnobutyeahbutishouldn'te Posted 15:47 on 28 October 2008
The same old point but always relevant: what about those sisters who are ready to stereotype us at the drop of a hat? Imagine if we replace "Chinese" with "Arab" or "Gypsy" or "The Vai of Liberia"??

I've never beat a girl or deprived them of their liberty, but by the sounds of some of these accusations it seems as soon as I date a Chinese girl I will not be able to escape my biologically determined drive to oppress her rotten.

I don't dismiss some men are scum, but translating that sentiment into "you are Chinese, therefore you must be scum" and the extension of "yeah my man's Chinese BUT he's different" is frankly racist.
N - What's all the fuss? Posted 15:54 on 28 October 2008
Susan,
Thanks for your insightful article. The comments/discussion following the article were very interesting as well.

I think one of the points that another poster made was interesting and resonated with me: that being of a different race does not automatically mean you are of a different culture. I look Chinese and yet I am no different culturally to my white brothers or my white friends.

I have nothing in common with Chinese culture - I've seen this first hand when working in Asia. Even Singapore, supposedly 'progressive', I found to be an intrinsically racist country. Even when I was qualified more than a white American man, the staff preferred to take direction from him. Why is this? Because there is a hierarchy, and in my experience, the Chinese put themselves AFTER white people (but before darker people).

Having experienced racism whilst growing up but never having a foundation of culture to which to relate, I find this continued 'culture-ism' at odds with our desire to be modern and progressive. I find it entirely odd that one would base one's choice of life partner on race - but I think what you are really talking about is a shared culture. Therefore it's not really about the colour of someone's skin; it's about their background and upbringing (which is why you talk about BBCs and ABCs being different). In fact, if you start to look at it culturally rather than racially, I don't really have anything in common with BBCs - apart from that we look like we're the same racially, and we speak the same language. Where do I fit?

An interesting topic for me, and probably why I stumbled across this website, would be around the identity of 'second generation' children of mixed-race couples. I never really thought about my Chinese heritage (other than attributing my looks to it) until I thought about the possibility of having my own children. Now that I know that any children of mine will be mixed race, I wonder what their identities and sense of self will be. Am I doing them a disservice by not having any Chinese traditions or culture to pass down? Or would it just be like a white person trying out Chinese culture; inauthentic and trying too hard? Is that what my culture/identity is: a 'white' person in a Chinese person's body?
N - Chinaman - Chinese male stereo Posted 16:04 on 28 October 2008
Hi Chinaman,
As someone who looks Chinese but has spent most of their life in a predominantly white culture, I would say that the stereotypes you mention are not really perpetuated by the white community. I think it is possibly the BBC community (of which I am not part).

The only clichés you would ever hear about Chinese men is possibly in reference to martial arts films - Bruce Lee or Chow Yun Fat. Generally thought of as 'cool' Asian characters. Maybe the other stereotypes I've heard is that they're short, or they're 'in proportion' (as opposed to the related stereotype that favours black men!) but in reality I think that Chinese men are largely absent from the white consciousness.

Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is debatable. But I can say - from someone who has always been hyper-sensitive about negative stereotypes around Chinese people - that I have never heard anything about Chinese men being wife-beaters or oppressors.

I agree about the fetishism of Chinese women, however. I've lost count of how many men have thought it humorous to compare me to a Chinese/Japanese schoolgirl. (I look young, but am in my 30s with 2 Masters degrees.) I suppose it's better than being thought of as subservient, though.
chinaman - N Posted 16:57 on 28 October 2008
Yes, I meant BBCs, HKBCs and Taiwanese mainly. I am a first generation mainlander but I catch people by surprise because I'm also your typical hoodie wearing London rudeboy. You're more likely to bump into me in a bashment night than a karaoke one.

Non-ethnic chinese stereotype us differently: ie they just don't think there's anything in China apart from rice bowls and kung fu.

In a conversation about the favelas of Brazil I remember talking to some people about the shanty towns back in my city and they were shocked to imagine a Chinaman poor (and not cooking).

The scary thing is no one will pigeon hole another ethnicity so readily.... roughly enquivilent to someone saying "wait, there are black doctors?" Sad to say it's not outrageous when it's by us about us.
pensggs - Chinaman Posted 18:15 on 28 October 2008
Do you call a rose 'Chinese'. It was originally a migrant from China.

When your upbringing is entirely white British, the fact that your skin identified you as 'Chinese' do not make you 'Chinese'.

It is difficult enough for those Chinese children adopted by white British whose parents could never prepare them for racial discrimination in most areas of their life. The facts are these children will experience prejudice and discrimination. The worst part is it is difficult for these children to understand why and seek solace in comradeship with other children with the same appearance as them with Chinese parents.

My upbringing was traditionally Chinese, my educational has been essentially British. I had experienced living in both cultures, and working in both cultural environment. We only grow strong when we have roots in our culture, be that white British or Chinese. Being one does not mean we cannot be the other. Pigeonholes are built for pigeons. if we are not pigeons, there is no need for us to roost in those pigeon-holes.
Anonymous Posted 20:42 on 28 October 2008
talking about birds...
err talkin about birds,
why do birds suddenly appear?
every time you are near
just like me, they long to be
close to you
la.lalala..close to you

what cheesy song, but chinese people are like birds they long to be close to chinese people
James k. Li - Whats your point Posted 11:13 on 30 October 2008
Chinese people long to be close to chinese people? hmmm, they do you know why? maybe its because they are chinese. But they don't really long to be close to the chinese. If that was true we would not be in my opinion the most un united race of people on earth. (if you disagree just refer to past events and chinese history). So whats my point? We long to be close and we don't.
pensggs Posted 12:59 on 2 November 2008
'Birds of the same feather flocks together'.

Look at the contribution of the overseas Chinese in the economy of pre Communist and post Communist China. Look at the numbers of organisations and 'Mother tongue' language classes throughout UK.

'One swallow does not make a summer'.

Our experience within our vicinity might convince us that what we experience is 'FACT'and 'REAL', however to drawn a conclusion that the Chinese is the most 'un united race of people on earth' is premature.

Imagine if 'Hitler' had been successful in Europe; and Europe became the 'The THIRD REICH' with its many cultures and races. Would you then draw the conclusion from the political squabbles in the present EU as the 'Europeans' as the most 'un united race on Earth'.

Where 'Hitler' failed; 'Shi Huang Ti' did it over 2200 years ago. So before we draw our conclusion of the Chinese being one race and one culture, let's us do some historical homework.
pensggs - Love and the Chinese Women Posted 13:15 on 2 November 2008
Just a note, this thread appears to have deviated. Although, I am still writing abouts 'Birds' as in 'Annoymous' peotry.

Chinese culture expects a married woman to sacrifice herself on the cross of the 'Family' and still expects the Chinese woman to retain her own 'Surname'.

What was the 'historical' reason for this???

Is it because the Chinese culture treated the woman as only a vehicle for reproduction, therefore, do not want to accord the Chinese woman, the honour of the 'Family Name'???

Or is it because the Chinese culture was so 'progressive' that it recognise the 'individaulity of the woman'???

The paying of 'Financial Loss' to the Chinese woman's family; did that accord the purchase of a 'property' or a ex gratia recompense of the cost of raising the Chinese woman to enhance the family line of the 'Family'??

Let us return to the thread.
Hot Chinese Chips - the real problem is... Posted 12:57 on 5 November 2008
The primary problem is that Chinese people can have conservative and (often outdated) views on family and family. The secondary problem is that Chinese children are brought up to respect their parents' demands too much, instead of thinking about what they want instead.

Some of these traditional views for a good wife, is somebody who is obedient and treats her husband like a good servant. The husband's role is seen as the provider, and therefore he must be a successful professional; a good bank balance means a good husband.

So you see the conflict here. While Chinese children want to fulfil the wishes of their parents for the 'perfect' husband or wife, they sabotage the chance to find true love by trying to find somebody that meets the full criteria.
Susan S. Cheung - the real problem is... Posted 18:04 on 7 November 2008
Hot Chinese Chips,

While I agree many parents may still have conservative views on marriage and family, at the end of the day most parents want nothing more than to see their children happy and settled (that's the main thing), regardless of the ethnicity of the person they choose to be with. While parents may openly voice their concerns, eventually, through time, acceptance is achieved.

I married a fellow BBC and in no way am I his inferior or servant. We are equal partners in our relationship and as parents. Just because you marry a fellow Chinese/BBC doesn't mean you have to play certain roles or it's expected. My husband doesn't expect me to have dinner cooked every night (in fact, he cooks more than I do) and neither does he expect for me to be solely responsible for the raising of our children. He equally does his share of child-rearing and house work, and I certainly don't fetch his slippers for him!

In any relationship (Chinese or not), we have choices and a voice of our own.

Even if your future partner meets the parents' "full critieria" as you suggest, I guarantee there will be differences or tensions within the two families. It's not perfect harmony.

The bottom line is you can't just marry someone to please your parents - life is too short if you are unhappy.
Hot Chinese Chips - the uptight Chinese woman... Posted 9:41 on 10 November 2008
I think that most westerners perceive the Chinese woman as 'uptight' or 'frigid'. It's funny how Lucy Liu has been typecast to play a variety of uptight roles in movies and television shows (Ally McBeal). She usually plays a character who obviously has hangups about men, cruel, self-obsessed, angry, pent-up, unwilling to open up, untrusting, manipulative, bossy, stubborn, short-fused and backstabbing.
Susan S. Cheung - the uptight Chinese woman Posted 14:44 on 10 November 2008
Hot Chinese Chips,

If that is the image perceived by some Westerners, the other group thinks that Chinese women are exotic, sex kitten, submissive or Suzy Wong types.

As a Chinese woman, I find stereotypes of any kind objectionable and useless.

I am an individual, not a thing and people (Chinese and non Chinese) should stop putting Chinese women (and men) in to a box. We each have different lives, situations, circumstances, experiences, feelings, memories, choices, emotions and personality, but then that goes for everyone in the world too!
Minter Posted 14:58 on 10 November 2008
"When I met my present husband, I was 18 and he was 23 Both of us being westernised Chinese. We married within four months of meeting. Our marriage sustained and maintained for 36 years"

Why? Arguments, bored of each other?

I'm beginning to wonder that the act of marriage is hardly worth it; I wouldn't go into such a thing if it weren't for life - and by life I mean til the day we die. It baffles me that people would split up at such a age (short of violence, etc.) - you're both going to find it near impossible to find another partner, and will live the rest of your days alone and forgotten. Friends are great, but they have their own lives to lead.


N - if you have hardly met any chinese men in your life, how do you know that they "tend to be shorter of other races"? Did someone tell you that stereotype, or did you think your accurate analysis of the 3 immigrants you met equated to 1.3 billion people? It shocks me that people - even of our own race - are so quick to stereotype ourselves. It seems that from a (world perspective point of view), there are a diverse range of white, black and asian people, but somehow the chinese are all related in some way???
chinaman - minter Posted 16:32 on 10 November 2008
hear hear!
pensggs - Minter - Why?? Posted 0:14 on 11 November 2008
Because life gets 'shorter' the older you get.

Because what an 18 years old was too young to use her head.

Because the baggages we carried from our childhood can caused personality and psychological issues in a marriage

Because human beings are complicated and personality problems get 'worse' the older you get.

Love is forever, marriage does not have to be.

A lonely person will always be lonely even when you surround them with people.

A happy fulfilled person will be happy wherever they are.

Finally, just because you are divorced it does not mean you stop caring.

Marriage holds both captive to the norm. Often letting go allows the person to grow. It can often be kinder to the person you are letting go and it is also being kind to yourself.

Yesterday, two persons of advanced age were discovered injured in a flat in HK. He had knife injuries, she had hammer injuries on her head. No one else was involved. Why did these two persons stayed together to cause misery to each other????

Another couple I know has been married for over 54 years. Both are unhappy because personality and psychological problems had intercepted and blight their remaining years. They are together in spirit but cannot live with each other.

Because when we have psychological problems, it does not affect only one person in the marriage.

So before we make assumptions on any one person's relationship, we need to understand what held that relationship together in the first place. Sometimes, what held that together no longer exists.

Finally, life is too short to waste the remaining years fighting for a 'lost cause'.

I have invested 36 years of my life and paid my debts of love; it is time to invest in myself before it is too late.
Robin - marriage Posted 8:46 on 23 November 2008
Iam living and working in china,I have ben married 7 years to a chinese girl.we have so many problems.what were small problems seem to be so very very big.we fight we dont communicate,my wife pushes all the wrong buttons and i bite back at her.i hate the way we are and i dont like what i have become.Iam 41 she is 36 we have no children.my wife puts me down all the time,threatens with divorce always points out my negitives.I bite back,iam not very good at saving money,and when i do try and save i get negitive feed back.we are both at fault for our marriage going bad.Iam dissapointed in how we are are now.Iam at a loss as to how to save or work out maybe there is to much water under the bridge.my email is robinferrall@hotmail.com
Susan S. Cheung - marriage Posted 17:00 on 26 November 2008
Dear Robin,

I am sorry to hear that your marraige is going through some difficult times. If you haven't thought or done something about it, I think you and your wife need the help of a professional marriage counsellor and a chance to really talk in a neutral setting with someone who can help steer the discussions. I hope you can get some resolutions. Good luck and thanks for sharing what must be a painful situation.
Edwina Lee Posted 0:11 on 24 November 2008
I can't help but feel that all 3 women interviewed misunderstood the concern of their parents as pressuring them into marriage. This appears to be very common.

Of course parents would be concerned when they see their children, particularly girls, not getting married after 30. They are first of all, concerned with the happiness of their children, and not finding a husband is an ominous sign that their children are not getting along in their love life, and they will suffer the consequence of not experiencing parenthood which is an important uniquely satisfying experience.
Lisa Posted 11:45 on 25 November 2008
Edwina, I have to point out that you are the one who has misunderstood the article. Speaking as one of said women I think I am in the best position to comment. I am in a happy, long term relationship with a non Chinese guy. So I AM getting along very nicely with my love life. My parent's concerns are more focused on my partner not being Chinese than anything else. And as for children being the be and end all, well I think that is down to personal choice. Nobody should have views or cultural norms forced on them yet that is exactly what many Chinese people, sadly, do to their children which only serves to alienate them. Finally, I don't agree with your point that it's worse for women to be single and partnerless in their 30s. It's not a good situation for anyone, regardless of gender.
N - Chinese men being shorter Posted 16:41 on 12 December 2008
Minter says "N - if you have hardly met any chinese men in your life, how do you know that they "tend to be shorter of other races"? Did someone tell you that stereotype, or did you think your accurate analysis of the 3 immigrants you met equated to 1.3 billion people? It shocks me that people - even of our own race - are so quick to stereotype ourselves. It seems that from a (world perspective point of view), there are a diverse range of white, black and asian people, but somehow the chinese are all related in some way???"

Minter -
I've not dated any Chinese men or 'met' them in the intimate sense - they've not tended to be in my close circle of friends. That doesn't mean I haven't only met 3 Chinese men (eg I saw a fair few when working in Asia) or observed them (funnily enough, we do have them in London).

I was not saying 'All Chinese men are short' - I was saying that a) they have a perceived tendency to be shorter than Caucasians, which seems to be backed up by research, and b) Western women tend to view height as an attractive factor in a mate. Therefore it could possibly be one of the reasons why Chinese men might be seen as less attractive by white women, although I suspect that it's more to do with lesser exposure. If you have mainly white guys in your social circle then you'd have to go out of your circle to meet Chinese men, and even so - as has been discussed on these boards, a lot of BBCs want to meet other BBCs to date (which to my mind is not that different from white people showing a preference to other white people for dating).

I think if you did any digging around, you'd find that *on average*, Chinese men are shorter than Caucasian men. This doesn't mean there are no tall Chinese men, nor does it mean there are no short Caucasian men. It does however mean that on height distribution, the Chinese bell curve differs from the Caucasian one.

Sometimes you generalise and it's not politically incorrect; it's just a fact. If I were to tell you that the average Chinese person has black straight hair and narrower eyes than a Caucasian, would you take offence at that? Isn't that just a generalisation based on the average Chinese population?

A basic internet search (or ask some white people in your office) throws up many examples of this 'perception'.

Race and height stats - Chinese average 166-172cm; UK average 175-176cm; Australians 178cm; Netherlands 180-184cm:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_height#Average_adult_height_around_the_world

Looking at these stats, do you think there's a reason why people might think of Chinese people as shorter? Do you think that might be why, in Asia, clothes stores stock more in the smaller sizes?

Height and body mass differences - Chinese are shorter and smaller boned than Caucasians:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16136538?dopt=Abstract

Chinese university sets up short people's association:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/316123.stm

Women prefer men taller than them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness#Height

British women prefer tall men:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2190461.stm

More women preferring tall men:
http://living.scotsman.com/features/Sexy-Science--Why-do.4643153.jp
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1404115/The-long-and-the-short-of-it-is-that-women-prefer-tall-men.html
http://www.bodylanguageproject.com/articles/tallmen.htm


There are many sources contributing to the 'stereotype' (I would say fact) that Chinese people TEND to be shorter than, say, Caucasians. Deny it all you want - that perception will still be there, because it's based on fact! On average (not all the time), if you pick a random Chinese guy and a random Caucasian guy, chances are the Caucasian will be taller.

I think it's easy to feel victimised and stereotyped on that basis but I don't really think it's valid. Haven't you ever heard anyone say that black people are better sprinters? Is it wrong to say that black people *tend* to be better sprinters because most of the Olympic finalists are black, and no white, Asian or East African has broken ten seconds in the 100metres?

Sometimes I don't think we do ourselves any favours by trying to deny that there are any differences between races. (Not that it should matter - that's not my point. But it's a bit crazy to pretend that differences don't exist and people's preferences don't reflect this.)
Zac Zheng - I agree Posted 16:46 on 12 December 2008
Chinese guys tend to be shorter and smaller. Let's accept this fact and get on with it.

We also tend to have higher IQs.
Jay Jay - Chinese women are lovely creat Posted 14:06 on 26 December 2008
How or where can I ever meet Chinese women in the UK? I'm a Filipino and so very interested in getting to know a nice Chinese woman - I've spent 4 years in Tiawan and learned that language somewhat - ow can I meet someone here in the UK?

Spanish_Blood@BreakThru.com
Susan S. Cheung Posted 5:33 on 31 December 2008
Jay Jay,

I suggest you try an oline dating site. DimSum is not the forum for you as we are a community website for British Chinese and others interested in Chinese culture and, as such, we discuss topical issues relevant to our lives. We are NOT a dating agency where you can meet Chinese women! Please refrain from posting in this forum, and others of you out there who may be thinking the same!!!
Kate Posted 16:42 on 5 January 2009
Well said Susan, posts of that nature are dragging this website down and demeaning women in the process. I suggest comments like that be removed.
Jeanette Posted 5:20 on 15 February 2009
It’s fascinating to read how foreign Chinese feel about the need to marry when you are of age. From a Hong Kong Chinese’s point of view, I envy your situation. It means that you are still living in a stable and normal environment with no pressing issues from the outside world. Family thoughts have taken an about turn in Hong Kong these past few years due to the economic downturn. It is not common these days for elderly people to enquire your marital status and judge you from it. The focus is on how to survive with as little money as possible. Raising a child here is a parent’s number one burden. Young couples no long plan to have children even though the government encourages more births. The education system sucks and if you cannot afford private schools and tuitions, don’t even think about having children. The rate of first time marriage registrations has plummeted over the past few years and the rate of divorce has soared. We are an economical race and our cultural family values are under attack because of the economic crisis. Everyone’s holding off getting married and having children until times are better. I believe Chinese people are prudent and practical, the time has come to alter our traditional views on marriage, at least on this side of the world.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 15:30 on 15 February 2009
Dear Jeanette,

Thank you for sharing your first-hand views of relationships in Hong Kong.

I think no matter where you live now, the economic situation is a wake-up call for many as they reassess where they stand in having children, if they get married and even basic survival.

I always thought that the overseas Chinese communities, especially the older generations have fought to preserve their traditions and cultures as they remember them in their youth, as if sometimes time has stood still for them. I can understand it now as a reaction to holding on to memories and values when you are so far away from the memories and security, and experiences you have known before you embarked on an arduous journey and strange, often difficult situations in a strange country. It's only human.

I have heard from friends and family members in Hong Kong that many of the old traditions and values really don't matter any more, and that symptoms of modern life, such as divorce is not a big deal and not something you are judged on.

Divorce and other situations you mention are products of modern life and affect overseas Chinese as well.

From anecdotal evidence from said family members and friends in Hong Kong, they share many of your views.

As a previously said, I think in this economic environment and at this point in our histories, we are all reassessing where we stand.

Again, thank you for sharing and please feel free to write more to me direct at susanc@dimsum.co.uk.
C - re: Posted 9:12 on 24 September 2009
Jeanette wrote:
I believe Chinese people are prudent and practical, the time has come to alter our traditional views on marriage, at least on this side of the world.
This BBC does not believe that Chinese people are practical, they are too stuck in blind stupid tradition. Why are girls still being selectively aborted or killed in 'modern' China, to now create a huge gender imbalance amongst the young ? Why do Chinese still prefer boys in the 21st century ? Why do overseas Chinese still prefer boys ? This is a Big Black mark on Chinese people and culture.
Anonymous Posted 7:33 on 27 November 2009
As a BBC male, I couldnt careless about most BBC women, because most of them will only marry non-chinese/white guys, their children will be mixed race white washed, so there ends the chinese bloodline. Those who havent married after they've reached a certain age won't ever marry, they're usually the ones who work for white employers and value their career.

Reba said come crap about chinese guys have freedom to date who they want and appluded for marrying white women whereas chinese womewn are traitors? This is nonsense, you look at statistics, inter racial marriages in uk if my memory is correct is about are about 69% white men/chinese women vs 31% white women/chinese men. Clearly its chinese women who are marrying whites not chinese men. chinese women are the ones who have the freedom because theyre the less important gender, chinese men are more important, therefore the parents are more stringent in their sons choice of bride. they are traitors because of the excessive numbers of chinese women who are marrying white men. this forces the chinese men to marry mainlanders because the chinese women in uk dont want them, thats why youre traitors.

HK men are marrying mainlanders because HK women are too demanding, if you dont have lots of money, no HK woman will marry you.

at the rate we're going, dimsum wont be a BBC site, well it isnt anyway, its more like a british chinese site thats now been over run by non-chinese who want to date chinese women or other stupid foreigners. in 15 years time, dim sum will be split up into 1) fujian ex-patriate site, with kids saying "my mom and dad are immigrants from fujian blah blah." 2) A mixed race site for white washed mixed race who will be coming into this site with the usual...my mom's "chinese, my dads english, i cant speak chinese, what is chinese? i dont know any chinese people, all my mates are white."

The apocalypse is coming.
ZZ - Reply to Anonymous Posted 19:28 on 12 July 2010
I am ethnically Chinese and studied in the UK.
From observation, the World as we know is turning more tolerant to race differences and difference in Nationalities as we travel more and are more connected. Stereotypes will always exist.
Being a mixed race child might offer them stronger genes physically, the crux of the matter is whether the child is well-adjusted and successful; not whether if they are of a homogenous race.
On learning Chinese, the smarter non-chinese parents are already making their non-chinese kids to pick it up. If chinese looking kids/adults cannot speak some basic chinese, they would look silly, as most expect them to. My Canadian Chinese friend who is 100% chinese started learning it at age 25 as he was looking for his roots.
My ex boyfriend who is black, speaks better chinese than some of my Peranakan Chinese Singaporean friends, he sees the economic value in it.
Nonetheless, I am single again and the million dollar question is , "Do you want to get married?" I would say yes, but I don't know to whom and when...and perhaps I would look for a Chinese (BBC )male because at the end of the day, you need your parent's blessings.
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