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Tuesday, 28 August 2007
Miss Hong Kong and why I am angry

I have something on my mind; a subject that won't go away and has worsened over the years from what I've seen and read.  I feel angry and shake my head in disbelief...

Loud boos from the audience accompanied the crowning of the new Miss Hong Kong in July 2007.  The netizens of a certain Asian website were some of the harshest critics calling her ugly, plain, chunky and chubby (she is 5'4.5" and 108 lbs.)  This is outrageous to me.  When did 108-pounds become the new fat and by whose standards are we judging beauty?  http://asianfanatics.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=412120

You are always on my mind

In my mid-20s on holiday in Edinburgh
In my mid-20s on holiday in Edinburgh
Issues around weight and standards of beauty have affected me mentally, physically and emotionally ever since I can remember.  I don't think I'm alone in my love-hate relationship with my weight nor am I the first woman to ask: "Am I pretty enough?"  I think weight and standards of beauty are significant concerns for many Chinese women.

I confess I'm a dress size or two larger than when I got married (depends on where I shop), but I'm ten years older, at the start of my fourth decade, and have given birth to two children; gravity takes over no matter how much I work out!  I think I look good for my age; I don't see any wrinkles or age spots.  On some levels, I feel no different to when I was in my mid-20s.  Mostly, I feel good; happy in my skin and confident as a mature woman.  However, why does the lack of losing the last ten pounds of weight since my daughter was born frustrate me so much? 

My husband, Yiu-Yin, says he'll divorce me if I lose too much weight and become skinny!  No matter how strong I am in my thoughts and how much Yiu-Yin says I look great and healthy, I still worry about my weight.  A lifetime of critical comments trapped in my subconscious mind come back to trouble me.  They are like little insidious voices perched on my shoulders   I have spent most of my adult life reversing the negative comments about my weight from my youth.  I've worked hard to enjoy my food and not be concerned if I eat one too many slices of pizza or char siu baos.  Yet, at the same time as I've worked hard to achieve a good attitude, (and I'm being honest here) I still feel uncertain about my weight and my looks.

I've always felt big compared to my petite, tiny-boned and still barely 110-pounds mother.  I remember her and my grandmother constantly telling me not to eat too much, to watch my weight - half a bowl of rice will do and no sweets - and to exercise.  Even in the 1970s and early 1980s images of thin and glamorous Hong Kong movie stars, celebrities and models in glossy magazines exerted their influence on my mother's generation. 

My mum was brutally honest and told me if she thought I looked fat in my clothes.  In her mind she wasn't being harsh, but doing her best for her daughter's future.  The underlying messages behind her admonitions were I wouldn't be attractive enough to get a Chinese husband if I put on weight and other opportunities would be closed off to me if I were fat. 

Like many of her peers, my mum was using negative psychology to spur me to change my habits, work harder and do better.  For the most part, this tactic did make me work harder and achieve success, for example in my studies.  Ultimately, she wanted me to fulfill my potential, but much of the time I just longed for the words: "I think you're perfect the way you are."  Western ideas of promoting self-esteem, visible and vocal praise and making people feel OK are alien to the Chinese mentality I've encountered.

Sometimes, I used to dread going to dim sum with my parents in Chinatown in the full knowledge I would get a grating comment or two about my weight if I had put on any since I last saw the person.  Such comments affected me deeply as a vulnerable teenager; they seared my soul.  On the surface, I acted with indifference or accepted their observations with a quiet smile.  I won't elaborate on the many painful tears I shed.  Suffice it to say I spent years in counselling in my twenties to nurse my fragile self-esteem. 

I used to dread going back to Hong Kong when I was in my teens and twenties.  Cousins whom I hadn't seen for several years would give me the third degree about my studies or my budding career; whether I'd bought a car; what designer clothes I had and, of course, they would remark outright if I'd put on weight.

Susan & Yiu-Yin at a recent wedding
Susan & Yiu-Yin at a recent wedding
I still feel like an elephant in Hong Kong when I buy clothes - all 5-feet of me.  Why?  According to Hong Kong sizing, I'm a size large or extra large.  I have to steel myself to go into shops where the ultra-thin assistants give me the once over and point me in the direction of the matronly clothes.  Sometimes, it feels like a conspiracy between designers and shops stocking smaller sizes so only skinny people can wear them.

I'm hardly fat; I'm a healthy size in the UK and America, but in relation to typical Hong Kong sizes I'm huge.  Hong Kong is definitely a place where I feel the greatest pressure to be thin and where many of its citizens work hard to conform to images of defined beauty assigned by the media and through peer pressure. 

I'm not spared when I go back to England.  Much as my own self-worth tells me I look fine, I steel myself for any comments from relatives and people in the Chinese community.  Call me paranoid?  Perhaps, but people will tell you to your face that you've put on weight in a negative way and I've heard women being described as "a pregnant woman" long after they've given birth or they're not pregnant at all to indicate that she's considered fat.

Chinese beauty standards

Modern Chinese standards of women's beauty are hotly debated in the fashion and beauty world and, in 2005, a major Chinese website carried out an online survey to find out their readers' preferences.  The responses indicated a preference for a certain height (165-170 cm) as well as "oval face, long and thick eyelashes, willowleaf-shaped eyebrows, long black straight hair, slender legs and smooth skin." http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-09/14/content_477698.htm 

Another article on Chinese beauty standards lists as desirable: "big eyes, high nose, small mouth, thin figure, white teeth, duck-egg-shaped face (I have also heard people mention melon-seed-shaped face), almond eyes, long eyelashes, dark irises, dimples, small waist, long straight hair, long legs, white smooth skin, no moles or freckles, and double eyelids."  http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_metz/20060902.html

If we, as Chinese women, are judging ourselves by such high standards, no wonder we fall short of the mark and are severe in our critique of ourselves and other women.  Likewise, if men are judging us by this long list of ideal beauty features, it would be easy to call someone who is 108-pounds fat and ugly.  By the way, the research shows definitions of male attractiveness are not so defined.  Women interviewed in articles were more concerned about the man's job and earning potential than about his appearance.

Standards of female beauty have changed over the years in China.  In times past, fuller-figured women were considered attractive: if you were plump, it meant you could afford to eat, and would be good child bearers.  There were other periods when it was fashionable to be slender or to have tiny feet.  Whereas, in the past, Chinese women were embarrassed by their buxomness, now they're embarrassed if they don't have any curves. 

Influence of the West

As more Asian countries do business with and have opened their doors to the West, Western perceptions of beauty have taken hold over its citizens and inform the growing debate on Asian beauty standards.  Clearly the desire to have double eyelids is a direct influence of the West. 

A growing number of people (mostly women) in major cities like Shanghai are turning to plastic surgery to make them look more beautiful in line with perceived Western ideals.  The most requested operation is to have a second fold put in the upper eyelid to make the eye look bigger and rounder.  Other popular procedures include getting a small high nose, a tummy tuck or breast augmentation.  Males in cosmopolitan areas are not immune to having some sort of surgery.  In a competitive world, many think this will get them a better job and attract women.  http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health &res=9D0CE5D61538F93AA25755C0A967958260

Western influences have made their mark on Chinese perceptions of skin colour.  The Chinese have always had colour snobbery: it's better for a woman to have pale, white skin rather than dark skin.  Historically, this showed you were not toiling in the fields.  The traditional liking for pale skin has given rise to much of the whitening creams and lotions sold in chemists over China.  However, the new rich in China, including models and celebrities, want to look tanned and bronzed, which implies they have money to go on foreign holidays.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6357439.stm 

Trends, such as plastic surgery and tanning, add fuel to the argument that ideals of external beauty in the West and East are merging. 

I think both Western influences on Chinese beauty standards and Western stereotypes of the Chinese female in general have a negative impact on Chinese women's psyche.

Western media images of Chinese women portray us either as sex kittens, Suzy Wong and Geisha types, or demure, pliant and submissive China dolls (as characterized by Chinese historical perceptions of inner beauty); both images are to charm men and for men to protect or have their wicked way with us.  The emphasis in all images is on a petite size and figure. 

As a Chinese woman, I find such images highly insulting as they're not true representations of Chinese womanhood.  The Chinese women I know form a whole spectrum of shapes, sizes and height.  They're strong in mental thoughts; resilient in emotional strength, and are beautiful in their own figures.  They have charming smiles; they're fun; they laugh and they're serious - in short, don't typecast us.

Eating disorders and my concerns for future generations

I think the trend in idolising ultra-thin Hollywood movie stars, celebrities, recording stars and high fashion models, especially by young people, is extremely worrying.  Dress sizes 0 and 00 have entered our vocabulary and it won't be long before we have negative sizing.

Experts argue that the sharp increase in severe weight loss and rising cases of eating disorders (anorexia and bulimia) in Asian countries, once considered Western diseases, are by-products of modernisation.  Confronted with images of young, thin and glamorous people in the media, today's young people strive to be ultra-thin because this equates to being rich and successful.

As a mother I want my children to grow up healthy and loving their bodies so they won't bend to intense pressures to conform to certain body types.  I want them to have good self-esteem so they feel great about themselves, their abilities and physical attributes.  In direct contrast to my own experiences, they'll have no doubts I think they're perfect as they are and I'll love them regardless of their size or achievements.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/998

http://www.concernedcounseling.com/communities/eating_Disorders/ minorities_asia.asp

Your views

This article is based on my perceptions and experiences as a British-born Chinese woman, coupled with extensive reading over the years and many searching conversations with friends and acquaintances who are American-born Chinese and Chinese women from mainland China and Hong Kong, as well as women from other Asian countries, such as Korea and Japan.

Are Chinese women the harshest critics of our fellow sisters, prompted by impossible high standards?  Are Chinese men judging us by those insane standards so they have no scruples in calling a woman chubby, chunky and ugly?

Am I wrong in my thinking?  Please restore my faith we're not that shallow as a race.

Similar experiences? Let us know by posting your comments below. You can also email Susan directly here: This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it
 
Comments
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Kaetelyn - Women and Weight Posted 20:49 on 28 August 2007
Oh boy, don't get me started on this issue. I am an Anorexia Survivor. In high school I weight 110lbs and wore a size 1, which my mother still had to take in to fit me. I married right out of high school to a cruel man who told me constantly that I had "thunder thighs" and I bought into it. When we divorced a year later (starter marriage, it doesn't count) I weighed a whopping 95lbs and spent several years in therapy. After the birth of my two oldest children I dropped back to 103lbs but I was very active and still felt very healthy and I was solid muscle at that time. When my third and final child was born I dropped back to 115lbs. That was 17 years ago and I have now crept back up to 140'ish. I wouldn't consider myself tall at 5'4" but I wear my weight rather well and somewhat proudly. I am still the thinnest child in my family. I have had some tough times in my life and now things are going pretty good. I'm a Nana now (still too young to be a grandmother) and I can see retirement hovering on the horizon. Could I stand to lose a few pounds? Perhaps, But I know my husband would rather cuddle up to me on those cold Upstate NY winter nights than some bony creature.
I do have one story to share. A friend of mine recently returned from a temporary assignment in Singapore. She is not someone that I would consider large or overweight by any means. However, on one shopping trip she was looking to purchase a dress for a special summer occasion. The older woman who owned the store plainly told my friend that she was too fat for anything in her store and did not mean it at all in a rude way. It was just a fact. She said that the culture in Singapore was such that they are not so worried about what to say to people about their body shape or condition. Here in the US it would be considered rude to even mention such a thing. But it was true, their sizes tend to run much smaller in Singapore than they do here. My friend had to save her money to shop here in the US for her clothing.
I have learned in my 44 years on this earth that as long as I am relatively healthy, and content a few extra pounds hardly matters.
Susan S. Cheung - Women and Weight Posted 0:10 on 29 August 2007
Dear Kaetelyn,

Thank you for sharing your story, especially that you are an Anorexia Survivor. It's so awful what we can do to our bodies; so much that we have to overcome.

I applaud your strength and courage to fight and overcome all that you have been through in your life. You have a very healthy and balanced attitude that we can all learn from.

As for your friend's experience in Singapore. She's right in saying that the lady in the shop was not being rude, just stating a fact. It's the same in Hong Kong, people have no qualms in telling you to your face what would be considered in the US or the UK as something very personal.

Sizes are smaller in Asian countries. What frustrates me as an Asian person is we're not all cut out from a cookie cutter mould, but the sizes in Singapore, Hong Kong, etc, assume we are. Indeed, many in Hong Kong and China are small-boned and have tiny figures and I recognize that many are naturally skinny, but equally I know many Asian women who are not slender and skinny, and have curves. I get offended because it's people's expectations I should be a certain shape and because I don't fit the mould it's my problem and I'm fat.

Often, I get remarks because I was born in the West that I've drunk too much milk or eaten too much cheese to account for my size!
Alice Chun - beauty in eye of beholder Posted 22:20 on 28 August 2007
Ah lovely thoughtful article. At the moment I waste away to nothing, I am bag of bones. You have lovely figure and are excellent example of Chinese woman. You got nothing to worry about and if your man is happy then who care?

I see eyelid operation in China and is real shame. Also I see Chinese girls dye hair blonde and red. Is shame as this not go with their beautiful Chinese features. One thing always catches my attention. In the west Asian models are often used as symbol in beauty adverts. Go to China and you see western woman is symbol in beauty adverts. Sigh! we are never happy with what we are.
Susan S. Cheung - Beauty in eye of beholder Posted 0:55 on 29 August 2007
Dear Alice,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and thank you for your nice comments.

Don't take this the wrong way, there's nothing wrong in being naturally thin, but I hope your comments that you are wasting away is not self-induced. No matter what our shapes we have to have balance in our food, exercise and outlook to achieve a healthy body and attitude.

You're right, it shouldn't matter what other's thinks as long as I'm happy and, indeed, my husband loves me exactly as I am. I keep this as my mantra all the time. But, I think the issue is more complex than just ignoring what people say.

I think a lot of Chinese women are naturally thin and that's fine, but I know many who feel the pressure to fit a particular body shape when they're naturally curvy or a bigger shape. There's so much pressure from many quarters to fit a certain look, not least you're limited in the clothes you buy if you're not thin.

You could say be strong and who cares what other people think, but when you live under that pressure, you can't just move, and your nearest and dearest are telling you you're too big then it becomes an issue.

What's considered as curves and healthy in the West is seen as fat in many Asian countries. I think as a society and race we have to embrace and celebrate differences and diversity in our body shapes.

If you're a naturally thin Chinese woman nobody turns an eye and going into shops to buy clothes presents no problems at all, so I don't even know if many women who are thin realize the stress for their more endowed sisters.

I too have seen Chinese girls experiment with hair colour and I confess I have dabbled with colour in the past. Hair colour is not the issue for me. What worries me is more radical ways we're turning to, like surgery, in order to copy what has been presented as the standards of beauty from the West as if these standards are superior.

You may be right we're never happy with what we are or have, but I think as we have to embrace differences and diversity in body shapes, we have to do the same in terms of what's considered as standards of Chinese beauty, and not that ridiculous list in my article!
Kaetelyn - RE: Beauty in the eye of the b Posted 14:46 on 29 August 2007
Pardon my western ignorance but I have to ask...eyelid operation??
Please don't tell me this is another sick twisted plastic surgery attempt! I shudder at the thought.

And Sang is right these comments are not only directed at our young girls, today our teenage boys are under similar pressures. Is it any wonder that the rate of depression among our teens is skyrocketing?

I want to know who the person is that sets the standard and gets to decide what normal means and fire them!
Susan S. Cheung Posted 15:36 on 29 August 2007
Kaetelyn,

The double eyelid operation is a plastic surgery procedure and becoming more popular in Asian countries. It involves the excision of the upper eyelid to make a double fold. I think this is clearly influenced by the West as some Chinese women think that having the surgery to make their eyes stand out, having rounder and bigger eyes like Western women is the standard of beauty, and will make them more confident and attractive.

I agree that teenage boys and, also, men are under scrutiny as well. Our young people are under so much pressure, I'm not surprized at the increasing rates of depression.

I think we're all complicit in deciding and buying into standards of weight and beauty. Clearly, the media, beauty and fashsion industries set the tone of what's acceptable. But we buy the magazines, watch the movies and buy the clothes. Voices of reason in presenting an alternative viewpoint of embracing all shapes and sizes are drowned out by glamorous thin images. Some headway is being made with some actors, celebrities and designers embracing such differences, but they are in the minority. Most of us feel helpless to do anything; it's our fault for not fitting into the "norm" so we blame ourselves for putting on the weight, striving to be an impossible image for many of us.

I think we need to be strong and see through the images we are presented. Work on our self-image and esteem, especially at times when we feel down, and encourage the younger generation to be proud of who they are.
Sang Posted 23:37 on 28 August 2007
Beauty is also only skin deep. Skinny-and-tan seems to be a global phenomenon. This piece conjures up so many memories from my past. Chinese culture does not differ from Vietnamese culture or any other south-east Asian country for that matter. I, too (no surprise), grew up in an environment where my siblings and I are constantly being critiqued by our parents regarding our physical appearances. "You're getting too fat!" or "You're too skinny!" were daily mantras in the household. I guess as long as there is a Hollywood, we are all scrutinized under the vanity glass whether we like it or not.
Susan S, Cheung Posted 1:24 on 29 August 2007
Dear Sang,

Thank you for sharing your experiences and observations. It does seem many of use who are from Asian cultures have faced the same intense scrutiny from our family, peers and community. Do you think this is driven purely by Hollywood and media images or are there other influences in our cultures for us to be and look a certain way? Where do we get our role models from?
Rosaline Posted 11:51 on 29 August 2007
What an interesting and insightful debate, Susan. Thanks.

Two quick observations:
(1) Recently, in an unguarded moment of relaxing happiness and in appreciation of Beauty, I complimented a young relative who's baby is now a year plus. She stared at me - perhaps out of astonishment since weight had been an issue with her and we'd refrained from making body references, I made the mistake of illustrating her sexiness further by saying that yes, her bum is smaller than even before having her baby, provoking "you're implying I was fat before!". An innocuous positive remark can be misconstrued, tested on the sensitivity gauge and adversely received.

(2)About changes in body weight, I notice that Chinese made comments but they hardly go behind the reason, into the emotional health and psychological factors of weight gain or loss(barring obvious reasons such as pregnancy, child birth, terminal illness).
Susan S. Cheung Posted 14:59 on 29 August 2007
Dear Rosaline,

Thank you for your observations. I'm glad you thought my piece was insightful.

In reference to your second point first, I think this is a subject we don't focus on so much as a culture. I wrote the piece because I was so outraged at people's harsh judgments when I read comments about Miss Hong Kong. However, there seemed few comments of support in blogs I read along the lines of "Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder," supporting and embracing diversity in looks, and how dare we make such judgments when she won. Instead, there was strident condemnation of her being the worse Miss Hong Kong for 20 years beause they thought she was ugly and fat. Why are we so happy to let rip like this?

It's easy for us to sit in judgment, but, as you so rightly said, we hardly go behind the reasons for weight loss or gain, be they emotional or psychological factors. As a race, it's easy to give judgments on such things as external beauty standards, foods, money, etc., but from experience Chinese are uncomfortable about vocalizing emotions. It's doesn't seem to be within our culture or nature to talk openly about death and dying, depression, or other things that are considered non-mainstream, such as sexual orientation. Instead, we keep silent on these serious issues, internalizing them and suffering in our mental and physical health. We need to have more open dialogue and support each other in the process of opening up as a society.

The first point you make brings up the question: How do we really feel when people make comments about body shape and weight? As previously mentioned in earlier comments, shopkeepers in Asian countries state as a matter of fact, "You are fat." How do the people who live in Hong, Kong, Singapore, etc, really take these comments? As a matter of fact and throw them off as water off a duck's back or are some people suffering in silence and seeing a poor self-image of themselves?
A.M. - Obesity and body image Posted 14:05 on 29 August 2007
I so agree that the pressure society puts on women to look a certain way - be it plump, bony, pale, tanned, etc. - is ridiculous. It is especially amazing to me that women who have carried and given birth to children cannot appreciate the miracles their bodies perform in that feat, but instead, are plagued with how they look. We worry about shedding pregnancy weight - the weight our bodies help us gain during pregnancy to prepare us for the demanding task of nursing a child. Instead of being able to enjoy and be in awe of how well our bodies take care of us, we worry if we look fat. Such a shame!

However, on the flip side, I just heard an alarming statistic today that 31 states in the USA showed increases in the rates of obesity in the past year. NONE showed a decreased rate. I do not want my daughter growing up feeling like she must be on a restricted diet in order to “look good”. However, I do not want her growing up thinking it is normal or good to regularly consume fast food, huge portions, and an abundance of sugar or sugar products. Our society is becoming more and more “junk” oriented as we crowd our lives with more and more activities which = less time to cook and savor wholesome, homemade meals. I want her to grow up healthy, eating an abundance of fruits, veggies, whole grains and meat and dairy products. I want her to learn exercise is fun and should be a normal part of every day, whether it is taking a stroll around the block after dinner, or playing a competitive sport- whatever she enjoys. I get so distressed when I remember my childhood, especially summer vacation, and compare it to kids these days. My brother and I lived outside during the summer. We biked, swam, ran, chased butterflies, visited the neighbor’s farm, etc… In general, kids these days camp out in front of a T.V., a computer, an X-Box, you name it. They are so much more sedentary. It seems rare to see kids outside just playing, and playing hard. The junk food and the sedentary lifestyle are what I consider my daughter’s true enemies on her path to a hopefully healthy body (whatever weight that might end up being) and positive self-image.
Susan S. Cheung - Obesity and body image Posted 16:34 on 29 August 2007
Dear A.M.,

Thank you for sharing your observations. You make some great points. You're right to say that we should enjoy and be in awe of how well our bodies can take care of us, nurture and nurse a baby, yet we still obsess about losing the baby weight. We compare ourselves to the celebrities who lose weight quickly and forget they don't have normal lives, but a bank of personal trainers, nannies and chefs to help them. Many of those celebrities feel they have to lose the weight quickly because of the business they are in, which says a lot I think. Thank you for putting this all into perspective.

Your second point about the rising obesity rates in the States is an extremely worrying trend, and affects other Western countries, such as the UK. It is a more sedantary life for all of us, filled with fast foods and junk foods. This is especially so for young people, who do not go out and exercise. It is the symptom of the society we live in; for one reason parents fear their children playing outside because of the dangers. That's not to say we shouldn't try and show them a good example in the way we eat at family meals and go out and exercise as a family, so it becomes ingrained. Again, thanks for bringing up some important points.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 16:43 on 29 August 2007
Dear A.M.,

I forgot to add that fast foods, junk foods, and a diet filled with more saturated fats, along with the rise in car driving is profoundly affecting Asian societies and their own rising numbers of severely overweight and obese people, especially young people.

This is a most serious problem and can be related to my piece in that we need to take into account all sizes and shapes, including the obese. We need to really examine and tackle, as Rosaline made the point, what is the underlying reasons behind the severe weight gain in our societies.
chinaman - damn you're prolific! Posted 15:32 on 30 August 2007
Another interesting article as usual. You really are prolific!

My personal view is that I cannot like a girl who hates herself. I dead against eye surgery but I wouldn't say I have a single eyelid fetish. Ditto with skin colour, I am equally against bleaching as I am tanning. We cantonese are naturally quite dark anyway, but thats because we've been drinking the sun's rays since birth. our dark skin is natural and beautiful, unlike salon tans which are orangey and smacks of self-hate. Ditto hair dye.

Now it sounds like I hate everyone lol :P

Peace
Susan S. Cheung - damn you're prolific Posted 19:11 on 30 August 2007
Dear Chinaman,

Thank you for your views. I'm glad you find my articles interesting. The issues I write about interest me and, often, I feel very strongly about them.

When I was growing up I longed to hear others like me discussing issues affecting us as Chinese people. But without the ease of technololgy like today there fewer means to really communicate.

I have always questioned, discussed and debated the big and, equally important, everyday issues affecting my life with friends wherever I have lived. This forum is another way for me to have a wider conversation with more people. I believe that through communication we can learn so much about ourselves and others, and move forward.

Please, if you or others reading this piece feel strongly about any topics, bring these to my attention by sending me an email to the address listed at the bottom of my article and, perhaps, I can use the subject for a future article.

I think I know what you are saying, and I don't think you hate everyone ;-) We should feel confident about who we are and feel OK about our natural assets, and make the most of them. Making the most of our assets like exercising and having a healthy body and wearing makeup (if that's your preference) is very different to elective surgery to alter your looks to fit into some sort of ideal image. Natural and confident people who feel good about themselves attract others to them, no matter their looks.
chinaman - miss and mr hong kong Posted 15:51 on 30 August 2007
also i can't believe anyone pays that any attention. first beauty pageants are exploitative and degrading, the winner becomes a tvb star and the losers become very expensive prostitutes. secondly it IS a joke, and the girl who won WAS ugly, plain, and much more. These events, like all else in Hong Kong is just about your connections and who you are related to.

Mr Hong Kong was the bigger joke tho i think, those guys were struggling to bench press 20kg. Also I do capoeira and I was offended at the way they bastardised our art.
Susan S. Cheung - miss and mr hong kong Posted 20:11 on 30 August 2007
Dear Chinaman,

I don't agree with beauty pageants per se and people who participate in them set themselves up for intense scrutiny and judgment. I agree with you they are exploitative and degrading. My objections came from people's comments as a result of the new Miss Hong Kong's win, (comments very much like yours)- where these comments came from (i.e. their basis) and what they imply.

Ask yourself are you judging her by the insane list of features mentioned in my article. If this is your view of beauty as, perhaps, the people who expressed the criticism on her win, then the vast majority of Chinese women are ugly, plain, "fat", ordinary and chunky, etc., and this is where I feel most strongly. I looked at the new Miss Hong Kong photos and I did not see ugly and plain, etc. I saw a very pretty and attractive woman. If you think she is ugly, then where does that leave the rest of us!

To have every beauty feature listed in my article is an impossible and unattainable outcome for most women and can lead to women seeking surgery and other means to reach unrealistic goals, not least destroying their self-worth. It sets up a false standard of beauty as it ignores 99% of women and who they really are. You prove my point, we are the harshest critics of our fellow brothers and sisters as we are blinkered into believing an artifial gauge of beauty. It makes women "hate themselves" (words you used in your earlier comments) or at best feel uncertain about themselves. I truly feel even the strongest and most confident of women have some doubts about their weight and looks at weak moments, especially as we live in a society where impossible standards are held up as the norm. Comments like you've expressed attacks the value and worth of a woman and can send her into therapy, and no joke. I, like many other women, work each day to validate ourselves and who we are. Why couldn't we have accepted she was judged by a panel, reached the standards of the competition and deemed the winner, instead of the vitirol that came out of poeple.

On a lighter note, I admire that you do capoeira. I tried it in the early 1990s and it was amazing to watch the physicality of the experts, but much beyond the physical limitations of my body!!
Diane Ashmore Posted 22:37 on 30 August 2007
I have never understood why thin is so attractive to people. I've always thought that the fuller figure looks better and healthier. I've received compliments about my figure and believe me I've never been thin! Thanks for writing about this issue.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 2:51 on 31 August 2007
Dear Diane,

The topic was something I felt strongly about and I'm glad it has resonated with people.

I think trends in body weight goes in cycles and this is yet another period where thin is the norm, but we're talking ultra-thin here with the advent of size 0 and 00. It's ironic to think that beautiful icons of years gone by, such as Marilyn Monroe, would be considered overweight by today's standards.

Ultimately, I think we should aim to be healthy whatever our size.
Rosaline - society and self-hatred Posted 11:29 on 31 August 2007
Provocative!
My views veer towards the malaise of today's society and no, I don't think Chinaman hates everyone la, but I would encourage Chinaman and others to reflect on self-hatred, the need to seek outward perfect 'beauty; and be more sympathetic towards friends who suffer from self-image problems.
I'm speaking as a middle-aged woman who has abandoned lipstick and kohl pencil, but who has yet to give up hair dyeing - until the entire crop turns sparkling white, like a halo of wisdom round an acquired experienced face. Mind you, I'm tempted to have rainbow colours to frighten the ancient gods of ageing away. Just for a laugh.

Seriously, when I've resisted hair dyeing for over three months, the dirty streaks of neither here nor there drags me into a grey moody tunnel when I look at the mirror - regardless of my inner beauty.
Susan S. Cheung - society and self-hatred Posted 14:39 on 31 August 2007
Dear Rosaline,

I agree with your point that we need to be sympathetic to friends who suffer from self-image problems. Even as many of my friends have said be strong, work on your self-confidence and know your self-worth, it sounds too easy to say when I think the issues are more complex.

Having a "I don't care what others' think attitude" is fine for some people, but others may need other avenues to help them with their self-image problems, whether that be talking through the issues with good friends or seeing a counsellor. Whichever, as the friend, your job is to listen and not judge the person - what do they have to worry about, you should snap out of your thinking, etc. We can't know how people really see themselves and the pain they may be in.

I agree with your assessment of hair dying. At my age, dying the gray streaks to my natural tones gives a boost to my confidence. Many older women have said their greatest friend and best invention is hair dye. Hair dying is a simple non-invasive way to help with self-image.
chinaman - rosaline Posted 13:17 on 31 August 2007
Sorry I didn't elaborate myself enough! I don't "judge" everyone with the same yardstick. I was talking about younger Chinese, and by hair dyeing I meant the kids walking around with bits of blonde and orange everywhere. I'm young still and have always got this vague idea that I would let myself go grey naturally and gracefully, but Im sure when it happens it'll be very different!!

Thanks to everyone for understanding, whilst I probably do sound really bitchy here with the what people ought look like thing. Rest assured that I never let whether I agree with someone's image affect the way I deal with them. I treat all people with respect. Anyways, relationships are based on love not political/cultural correctness!

Also Susan with the miss Hong Kong thing I don't think the winner was fat at all, I just think the contestants gets worse year by year!
Susan S. Cheung - rosaline Posted 14:23 on 31 August 2007
Dear Chinaman,

I see the young going around with dyed hair as just an extension of finding their self-expression. I too tried bright blue, green and pink when I was at university. Trust me from experience you grow out of this experimentation at some point. I knew going for job interviews after graduation my hair would scare away prospective employers!

Having gray hair when you get older is something which will come to all of us and it's a personal preference whether you grow gray naturally or not. At the middle years when you don't feel like you're ready to take your pension yet, a bit of hair dye in your natural hair colour can make all the difference with your confidence! I'm sure you'll judge for yourself when you get to that point.

As you say relationships are truly about love and not political/cultural correctness. I think it's easy to be flippant about saying how people should look, however, as someone who says they are young, you have a good attitude in not letting image affect the way you deal with people, prefering to treat everyone with respect.

No, you didn't say Miss Hong Kong was fat, but others have been very strident about using the word and other similar words. I think if these are people's judgments we should not have pageants all together as the whole set up is demeaning to women, even if they dress it up with scholorships for education for the winners or other deserving prizes.
MF, UK - Women's figures and weight Posted 13:37 on 1 September 2007
I can empathise with the sizing of women's clothes...I get depressed looking for clothes in the UK so look for clothes in the Netherlands where I am confined to the larger sizes range...but I do admit to finding a lot more choice than in the UK, yet most figures are pear shaped and obesity is prevalent here!

Keep working on the self-esteem and the subconscious and it would appear quite trivial.
Susan S. Cheung - Women's figures and weight Posted 14:35 on 1 September 2007
Dear MF,

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

I can't believe there is so little choice for women with fuller figures on the UK high street compared to skinny sizes. Often, we have to search for specialist stores, online or by catalogues and pay more. To me it makes commercial sense for designers to design affordable, great clothes for all shapes and sizes, especially for a fuller figure, and for the high street shops to carry them.

I do work on my self-esteem and subconscious mind every day, so thank you for reminding me as it's easy to forget in our busy, day-to-day lives.
Luke - Mainland China Posted 20:39 on 1 September 2007
my wife and many of her friends, all mainland chinese, regularly are told off by their families for being too skinny and told to eat more to look healthy.

it seems to me that people in hong kong in particular can be very image conscious, and not just about personal appearance, but also the car they drive, the job they have, etc.

not sure about other chinese communities, but it does seem to me that not all are the same in this matter
Susan S. Cheung - Mainland China Posted 21:36 on 1 September 2007
Dear Luke,

Thank you for your observations. I think you're right that not everyone in the Chinese communities in mainland China or other countries are fixated on being thin.

I think sometimes it does depend on individual families and their attitudes. Sometimes, the older generation does remark that it's unhealthy to be too thin, just like your wife's family.

Certainly, from my experience in Hong Kong, I would agree people there are very image conscious about appearance and symbols of success.

From what I've read and my various conversations with friends from Shanghai and Beijing, and other Asian countries like Japan and South Korea, there is an overall trend for people, particularly the younger generation and those in larger cities, to be more image conscious and thin is the preference.
Karen - The Weight Issue Posted 17:14 on 3 September 2007
Here in America I think that women are much too concerned about their weight. Magazines and Hollywood constantly portray skin-and-bones models and actresses as "normal." I get sick and tired of hearing and reading "I'm just normally thin!" That's baloney! That's only normal if you are from a third world country or are on your deathbed. There's also a commercial where the woman proudly states, "I was a size 10 and now I'm a size 2!" I ask you, when did a size 10 become fat? Is she bragging about being anorexic? As for me personally, I am lucky, I don't gain weight easily. I am 5'8" and weigh 125 lbs., so imagine how stunned I was when someone once referred to me as "full figured" (and believe me, there is nothing full about the top half of my figure)! Anywho, I say it is good to watch what you eat in that we should be concerned about healthy foods, but always remember "life is short, eat dessert first!"
Susan S. Cheung - The Weight Issue Posted 5:34 on 4 September 2007
Dear Karen,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I know the sorts of commercials you are talking about. They make me think when is good enough - a size 0! Really sets women up to feel not good enough and to fail.

Yes, life is too short. Yes, we have to watch what we eat to maintain a healthy weight, but believe me I don't deny myself cake now!

Enjoy dessert!
Lili - Beauty Posted 12:59 on 10 September 2007
Thanks for this article. For a longtime I, like you, have been appalled by Chinese beauty standards and have been on the brunt of some extremely harsh comments from my family on the way I look. What I find most surprising is that many younger generation BBCs (20s and 30s) subscribe as strongly to HK/China beauty ideals as East Asian natives! I really hope we can move towards a day when we can (A) Be less judgemental of each other, (B) Accept that beauty doesn't fit into a predefined mould and (C) Be more sensible and focus on what counts - ie. the strength and complexity of our characters. It's sad to say but I think our culture is more shallow than most, with an extremely narrow concept of beauty. Personally, I feel the most pressure and negativity from fellow Chinese people. 'Westerners' frequently comment on how beautiful they think I am (their words not mine). In any case, the point is, the only people imposing 'Western beauty standards' on us are us, the Chinese people themselves.
Susan S. Cheung - Beauty Posted 19:27 on 10 September 2007
Dear Lili,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and speaking out about your experiences. I, too, share your three hopes.

I think it's ironic, as you say, that many younger generation BBCs (20s and 30s) subscribe to HK/China beauty standards when growing up in the West might make them less conformist in attitude. It speaks to the huge global influence of media and fashion when many people across countires want to aspire to Western beauty standards - we are suckered in and buy into the messages.

I think there is a big element in our culture which is about image, saving face, showing you are doing well and people saying good things about you, and an important part of that is how you look. We do stereotype. Just look to the many magazines and media devoted to glamorous, beautiful and thin HK/China celebrities, singers and movies stars. Nowadays, it's definitely the cult of thin and fashionable. It's okay to be larger, but only if you are playing some comedic or non-mainstream role.

I don't even know if our thinner fellow BBCs, male or female, who naturally fit into the mould have even thought how much stereotyping and harsh comments within our own culture might hurt those who don't fit in with the predetermined beauty standards. Why would they, they don't get told they're too fat and can buy clothes at all the stores. Somehow, it's better in some people's eyes to be too thin and be told to eat more than be too fat or overweight, larger or curvier - that's the unforgivable sin now and was the same when I was growing up.

I really hope the younger generation are more tolerant, less judgmental, will see the person for their character not outward beauty, question predetermined beauty standards and see beauty outside the box. I keep optimistic that some people will break through the moulds and be voices and role models for the future. I do my small part in my daily life to challenge the older generation's perceptions.
Siu Mai - Awesome article Posted 19:14 on 13 September 2007
This article was brilliant. I have yet to go to HK with my partner and I am not a skinny girl..maybe because I am mixed with white and chinese I dont carry the stereotypical petite frame which most oriental girls do have. I don't really care to a point..because I will just want to eat all the nice food over there lol ^_^

I think your partner is really nice when he was saying that he basically loves you for how you are :)

My partner is from HK and he tells me that they are all so skinny that some of them look really unhealthy =/ and its like a fashion trend to be totally skinny in HK. He said even he felt really huge over there..especially because he's 6ft1. He did say it was to his advantage because people just moved out of the way lol.

Anyway, I think girls (and even guys!) are so obsessed with how they look that it actually is quite bad to what extremes they go to in order to have that waif like frame.

It's good to be healthy. I'd rather be abit podgy and healthy with properly functioning organs and healthy skin and eyes than look all dull and disgusting.

I have gone on some extreme diets and I have only ended up losing alot of weight but feel like crap on the inside. It's totally not worth it. If girls wanna lose weight because the scales tell them they are obese then do it healthily by excersising and eating healthily. Don't go on stupid fad diets because you only end up doing more damage to yourself than it's worth.

Write some more articles Susan!!
Susan S. Cheung - Article Posted 23:37 on 13 September 2007
Dear Sui Mai,

I'm glad my article resonated with you. Thanks for your feedback and for your comments.

I wouldn't be deterred from going to Hong Kong with your partner. It's a place you must experience for yourself to make any judgments. If you go, make sure you get over to the New Territories as well to see the real Hong Kong. Go and experience, and enjoy the food, particularly really great dim sum!

Your partner is right, men and particularly women are skinny - it's very much part of the culture - and be warned about the extreme image consciousness of the citizens.

You have a good attitude - be healthy with food and be happy. Extreme diets are not the answer. You can lose weight without dealing with what's going on underneath it all to make you want to lose so much weight. I would also add surround yourself with good friends (like your partner) who have the same healthy attitude. I gave up going out long ago with people who just eat lettuce leaves. I'm Chinese and love my food, not a rabbit!

It's good to have a strong and balanced mental attitude towards yourself, your looks and weight from a young age, it certainly helps with confidence and will stand you in good stead as you get older.

Trust me, faced with the trend today for extreme skinny and young, some women of my generation (late thirties and forties) are running to the surgeon. Personally, I work on being happy about myself and my pain is the pain of doing an hour on the cross trainer every other day!

I plan to write more articles for the Features column in the future so, as they say, watch this space.
Dennis Jun-Yu Low - The real problem.... Posted 11:32 on 18 September 2007
The real problem isn't who came out top in the beauty pageant, it's that there's enough public demand for a beauty pageant in the first place.
Susan S. Cheung - The real problem Posted 18:23 on 18 September 2007
Dear Dennis,

I agree this is the right question to ask. It seems to me while the whole beauty pageant scene is fast losing television audiences in Western countries and seen as not PC and demeaning to women, they are still very popular in East Asia, especially Hong Kong with its image conscious culture.
Diana Hamilton - Beauty is in the Eye of the be Posted 3:52 on 26 September 2007
As an overweight English woman I am now really looking forward to my first visit to Hong Kong which is due to take place next April! At least I know not to go clothes shopping!

On one of my visits to Beijing a few years ago when I asked if an item of clothing was available in my size I was met by giggles and shaking of heads from the shop assistants which I took to be a definite No!

A day or two later I was shopping in a market when I heard an American lady of far larger proportions than I ask the stall holder if he had trousers in her size. I whispered to myself "Not a cat's chance in hell" whilst he looked at her bottom incredulously and laughed.

Another time a friend of mine was looking at pearl necklaces - she is a normal size - and the shop owner said of her choice "No good for you, you have fat neck". She told me she felt like hitting him! But years later we still joke about it as we realised that it is the custom to make personal remarks and we shouldn't get upset.

At the other end of the scale, my daughter who is slim - a size 10 - finds it difficult to get off the peg clothes in Beijing where she lives and either has clothes made for her or waits until she is in Europe on holiday.

Although she has a fair complexion a Chinese friend once gave her whitening cream for her skin little knowing that my daughter's desire is have a healthy looking tan!

No-one is pressurising me to lose weight but I know I should so, now I have another incentive - to be able to go to Hong Kong without feeling too much of a freak!
Susan S. Cheung - Beauty is in the eye of the be Posted 19:42 on 26 September 2007
Dear Diana,

Thank you for sharing your observations. I do hope you have a great time in Hong Kong for your first visit. It's such an amazing place; please go and enjoy the landscape, culture, richness of colours and food. It is a shopping mecca.

Unfortunately, Hong Kong Chinese will state the obvious and won't think twice about hurting someone's feelings about their size. Though you shouldn't take it personally, it's something I, as a Chinese person, really, really hate.

You'll probably get more choices in larger sizes on Hong Kong Island where more tourists go shopping rather than in land in the New Territories. That's not to say don't go to the shops and markets in Kowloon and further in land, but more touristy places will cater more for Western sizes. I would go and buy some fabulous jewellery like gold and jade and, if you are shopping in the markers, don't forget to barter, it's expected of you!

No matter what, you'll stand out as a Westerner and it's not because of your size. You will just look different. Celebrate differences and have fun!
Jeff Minter Posted 5:21 on 21 October 2007
It's all a matter if proportion, isn't it?

It doesn't matter about your relative weight/build with others, but on your personal stats. Someone with a small build can still be fatter than someone who weighs more, simply because their build is bigger.

Having said that, this IS the internet. Take comments with a pinch of salt, or just ignore them completely. If you've seen any popular YouTube vid with a oriental person, you'll know what I mean.

Judging by the photos, you're slim with curves. That's perfect in my view.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 15:36 on 21 October 2007
Dear Jeff,

Thanks for your comments. I agree that it is about proportions and build as to your weight and size. I think the current trend towards skinny and no curves is not forgiving to those who have a fuller figure. Many Chinese are critical of those who don't fit into the stereotype of thin in Chinese society.

You're absolutely right to say take comments with a pinch of salt or ignore them completely. However, this comes with confidence and happiness with yourself and your body, and maybe age as well. For those who are not so confident and especially younger people who are beginning to get a sense of who they are, negative comments about body shape and size are very hurtful and damaging to self-esteem.

I'm not aware of the YouTub videos you talk about so I'll take your word for it. Thanks
Oksauce Posted 11:02 on 14 November 2007
Dear Susan
Is there something wrong with me? I wake up in the morning, stumble into the bathroom and and too frequently bump into a disheveled, ugly old man staring at me from behind the bathroom mirror. After I took my shower, brushed my teeth and after careful examination I would change my mind, there is a good looking guy starring out of the mirror and quite a ladies killer.
Susan S. Cheung Posted 20:05 on 16 November 2007
Dear OKsauce,

Tell me about it! I think all of us wake up some mornings and don't like what we see - life, stress, work, family, age all take their toll on us! Others mornings we feel okay. Put on top of that the pressures in what magazines and the media tell you, you should look like and you have your answer to self-image issues. So nothing wrong with you!!!
OKsauce Posted 12:40 on 24 November 2007
Dear Susan
Your words has sooth the brow of an old man. In your next article, I think you should admonish youth to be more patient with the elderly when they want to use the bathroom. We too need out own space and period of reflection.
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